Men on the Down Low
For all you brothers out there on the “down low,” knock it off. Embrace your sexual preferences and be honest with yourself and the people around you. But if you don’t feel comfortable being open about your bisexual tendencies, be responsible and use condoms. It’s selfish and cruel to intentionally expose your so-called loved ones to a disease that has no cure. Goodness. It breaks my heart every time I read one of these stories that talks about how so many women (particularly black women) are unknowingly getting AIDS from their partners who are engaging in unprotected sex outside of their primary relationship.
HIV-Positive, Without a Clue
Black Men’s Hidden Sex Lives Imperiling Female Partners
By Jose Antonio Vargas, Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, August 4, 2003; Page B01
She tested positive for HIV in October, infected by the man she had married the year before.
He hadn’t told her that he was HIV-positive and that he slept with men. She got pregnant. They got married. And, at 26 months old, their daughter died from HIV complications.
“If only he told me he preferred men over women. If only he came out with it. We could have been just friends,” says the 50-year-old social worker, who lives in Southeast Washington and is black. The woman, who asked not to be named out of concern for her privacy, sits in her office for a moment, the only sound a light summer rain pattering at the windows, the near silence unnerving. Then the demure woman suddenly contorts in a minute-long tirade: “I’m very angry, I’m very hurt. . . . This is someone who killed my child. . . . I want revenge. I mean, I’ve wanted revenge. . . . . Should I kill him? Sue him?”
She collects herself, and with half a smile edging back onto her face, she asks, “What can women do?”
The question is familiar to Patricia Nalls, who hears similar stories with numbing frequency. Three weeks ago, a 25-year-old woman was infected by her boyfriend, who then left her for a man. A week before, a 52-year-old woman found a pill, which turned out to be HIV medication, in the pocket of her boyfriend’s pants. She hurried to a clinic to be tested. She is HIV-positive.
Nalls, 46, runs the Women’s Collective, a nonprofit organization in Northwest for women living with HIV and AIDS in the Washington area and the only organization of its kind in the country, local and national health officials say. With the District ranking highest among major cities in the rate of new AIDS cases a year — blacks account for 80 percent of those cases — Nalls fears that there’s a trend that has gone unnoticed: an increasing number of HIV-positive women, infected by their husbands or boyfriends, who come knocking at her office, unsure what to think, not knowing who to turn to.
Nalls said they haven’t a clue that their men are on the “down low,” an expression describing black men who have sex with other men — some, if not most, having unprotected sex — and never mentioning it to their female partners.
In a 2001 report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, these men were identified as a major bridge for transmitting HIV to heterosexual women. They existed — in E. Lynn Harris’s best-selling books, in a poem by Essex Hemphill about men secretly having sex in the District’s Meridian Hill Park — long before the term down low became the subject of several newspaper and magazine articles.
Yet the women in these men’s lives, in some cases the mothers of their children, have seldom been mentioned.
Carren Kirkland, HIV outreach coordinator for the D.C. CARE Consortium, an umbrella organization of AIDS groups, works with HIV-positive men and women. She deals with men who are on the down low regularly and is familiar with the pressures that keep them from telling the women in their lives. She said most of them are addicts and that some have sex with other men for drugs; some have sex with other men just for the sex; and some do it for both reasons.
The problem, Kirkland said, is that “then they go home and sleep with their girls.”
On a recent Sunday, about 1:45 a.m., a 32-year-old restaurant worker who was at Secrets, a gay bar on Half Street SE, made his way outside. He said he read about the bar in the Washington Blade, a weekly gay newspaper, and decided to check it out. His girlfriend was away for the weekend — where to, he didn’t elaborate. This was only his second visit to Secrets, he said, adding that he had “fooled around” with guys twice before.
Is he gay? He wouldn’t say. Is he bisexual? He wouldn’t say.
“What she don’t know won’t hurt her,” he said as he smoked a cigarette while fidgeting with a lighter. “I play safe. . . . It’s all good. . . . She don’t need to know nothing about it.”
That mentality, said Ron Simmons, is pervasive in the black community, where the taboo topic of homosexuality, and anything else outside the heterosexual norm, clashes with the interlocking issues of race, religion and gender.
“What we’re talking about goes beyond the individual,” said Simmons, executive director of Us Helping Us, an organization for black gay and bisexual men in Southeast Washington. “Men and women in the black community are not equal. It’s rooted in the book of Genesis: God made Eve from Adam’s ribs. Black women, for the most part, don’t question what their men are doing. They don’t confront them. They are willing to put up with things that I, as a gay black man, would never put up with just to keep a man.”
Worse, Simmons said, is the denial within his community. “Black people don’t talk about homophobia — not in our churches, not in our living rooms — so you have men afraid to come out, fearful of telling their families what they’re really about.”
Such men, Nalls said, sometimes use women as a front. “They bring women to the company Christmas parties. They introduce them to their families. But the women are just that — a front,” she said. “And when everything comes spiraling down, when these women find out what’s really going on, they can’t help but feel used. They beat themselves up. They ask, ‘Did he really care about me? Was everything just a lie?’ ”
The Rev. Herbert B. Chambers, a pastor for 16 years at Young’s Memorial Church of Christ Holiness in Southeast Washington, disputes what he called the “myth of the homophobic black church.” Some churches may not address homosexuality openly, he said, but they do understand that the men and women who are “involved in the gay life” are their brothers and sisters, their sons and daughters.
“I don’t think all churches are publicly going to say that they endorse that alternative lifestyle, but I do think we have no fear of men and women who choose that life. . . . Put it this way: I may not accept his lifestyle, but that doesn’t mean I don’t care for him or love him. Most of us are awakening to the idea that gay men and women are a part of us. They’re of our flesh,” Chambers said.
He meets HIV-infected women, mostly mothers, through an AIDS housing and care program formed in 1992 with four other SE churches, and voiced his concern about the reluctance, by both men and women, he said, to use protection when having sex.
“What’s happening to these women is a major problem,” Chambers said. “We all need to be involved in trying to help them.”
Nationwide, about 75 percent of newly infected women contract the disease through sexual contact and the rest through intravenous drug use, according to the CDC. Those percentages closely parallel the District’s, said Guy Weston, director of data and research of the District’s HIV/AIDS Administration.
In the District, adult women accounted for 33 percent of all AIDS cases in 2001, the latest year for which figures were available, Weston said. That percentage has increased more than 400 percent since 1981, when AIDS was first reported. Adult women represented 7.2 percent of AIDS cases in the District that year, and 11 percent in 1990. They are now the fastest-growing population at risk to HIV and AIDS, Weston said.
And although local health agencies have targeted men on the down low in their HIV prevention efforts, urging them to have safe sex, some question why almost nothing is being done to reach out to the women they infect and to call attention to their problems.
“There is a lack of open dialogue, and this side of the story of how black women are getting HIV hasn’t been adequately addressed,” said Carole Bernard, spokeswoman for the D.C.-based National AIDS Minority Council. Bernard said black women are the new face of the HIV epidemic in the District and in the country. “It makes it very hard for women to protect themselves when they don’t fully know the sexual behavior of their partners. With the information that’s out there, I’m not sure if it’s clear enough for women to understand what’s going on.”
The disconnect was clear in May 2001. “If you have sex more ways than most folks, call the down low line,” said the last sentence of a local, 60-second public service announcement on National Public Radio that aired in the District then.
“Men on the down low knew exactly what that meant,” said Simmons of Us Helping Us, which produced the announcement with funding from the CDC. It received 614 phone calls in 2002, he said, mostly from men.
And women? “Other than making them mindful that their men are fooling around, what else can they do?” Simmons asked.
At the very least, these men are responsible for telling their female partners about their sexual behavior, said Eve Mokotoff, chief of HIV/AIDS epidemiology at the Michigan Department of Community Health. But many of the men deny their actions, she said.
“What’s happening to these women is tragic, and it’s not only specific to Washington, D.C.,” Mokotoff said.
Women, in turn, need to empower and educate themselves — they need to make sure they’re having safe sex, said Nalls, who has been HIV-positive for 16 years. She was infected by her husband, who didn’t sleep with men but had used intravenous drugs. “Protection is the answer here. It is sad and unfortunate that our society still doesn’t embrace and accept homosexuality. But until then, what happens? Women cannot be the brunt of all of this. Men know how to put on a condom, and they need to be honest. Women need to ask questions, and they need to be careful.”
A 27-year-old Southern Maryland resident tested positive for HIV after dating her boyfriend — “an average working-class guy, not too personable, though he came across as a very good person,” she said — for six months. Though he never said he was bisexual, she said he believes that he is. It wasn’t until she lay in a hospital bed at Shady Grove, running a high fever and suffering from severe flu, that he told her he was HIV-positive. That was 1997.
The woman, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, works in health care. “He knew what I did for a living. He knew I have to get tested every six months. He knew I’d find out. Why didn’t he just tell me?”
She says she has nothing against gay or bisexual men; she has friends who are. “What I take issue with is that I wasn’t given a choice. I didn’t know. How could I know? I feel like someone has put a death sentence on me. He doesn’t have the right to do that.”
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November 29, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Henry Darby
To all my DL brother!!
I am a straight man, and yes even when the lights are out.lol what brought me here, was my questioning of the DL phenomenon. I live in DC, and y’all know DC is the gayest cities ever, I have never seen so many gay black men anywhere else but in DC.
I am tall, attractive with a cute pretty-face, classy, educated, a perfect gentleman. I know I stir up a lot of attention because i am what you will call a metrosexual. I enjoy facials, peels, pedicures and massage. I work out and for I looking good make me feel good. Not that I am self-absorbed but I found it years ago to be a good way to fight depression. I am in my 30s now and since I am 14 years old, men have been making pass at me.
I ,physically look like a fashion model because my face is so attractive that all gay and down low brother think I am down. Growing up I thought something was wrong with me for attracting all those men then it dawn on me that they just felt like women, they both like cute guys and want to get their freak on with.
My friends used to make fun of me and call me a Gay magnet, as very attractive men, most of them “straight” will flirt with me. I think if I wanted I could join the league of the DL brother, but then I knew better, That was never something I wanted to take part in.
I want to say high and loud to all you sister out there, tired of those DL bro, that not all of us attractive, educated, good-looking, tall and charismatic brother are gays, 70% of us might be, but do not dispair, you’ve just searched the wrong places or wasn’t attentive enough.
I found that women have gone cuckoo since the DL stories came out and are suspicious of every good looking man they are dating or are married to. Give us a break women, not all of us are gay or on the low-low.
I think those brothers who practice this lifestyle have made a clear choice, to follow their freaky side. They let it control their lives. They could have simply say thanks but not interested. One of buddy tried that shit with me once and I checked his ass, we’re no friends anymore. This is how I see it, It is not because you are good-looking or packing, that you have to allow yourself to be treated like a woman or go gay or bi, you have a choice, use it.
the real issue for most dudes is dominance, If a man likes to be dominated or want to be dominated, this is a need he has inside and no matter what he may say or do or no matter how good the pussy his woman has is, the bitch inside of him will beg to be dominated. A lot of men are little bitches still looking for a male affection that’s of their non- existing or distant fathers. they are still demanding for that love and attention, care and affection in their adulthood, only by allowing another man to give it to them, so that at that exact instant they may feel loved and satisfy that inner need for daddy’s love. One solution like one sister offered earlier is to be delivered through deliverance prayer and the other see a psy, counseling may do some good, forgiveness is the key, forgive your dad for being a poor father and move on. Homosexuality sure is a demonic spirit and proper measure could be taken through evangelical help to cast it away for good.
Be aware, that no one is forcing those men to go DL, their own lust and inner desires are. No matter their many excuses, it is their own thoughts and lusts that are tricking them into committing these abominable acts.
Now !! All I can recommend to you all women is to take an hiv test before giving up the good, also stop laying around so easily, it is such a turn-off. Whenever I meet a woman and before we take it to the sheets,we both take an Hiv test. Believe me no matter what people say, I found it good to control passion. because in big city like DC or Ny, promisciouity seems to be a big problem and hoes both males and females are the one bringing HIV to the community. So get tested before diving!!
Henry
June 15, 2005 at 8:10 pm
BIGMAN
http://ejscoffeelounge.us/
The FBI’s War on Black America offers a thought provoking look at a government-sanctioned conspiracy, the FBI’s counter intelligence program known as Cointelpro. This documentary establishes historical perspective on the measures initiated by J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI which aimed to discredit black political figures and forces of the late 1960’s and early 1970’s. Combining declassified documents, interviews, rare footage and exhaustive research, it investigates the government’s role in the assignations of Malcom X, Fred Hampton and Martin Luther King Jr. The film reflects the rigorous research which went into its making, and portrays the nation’s unrest during the period it recounts. ~ Sally Barber, All Movie Guide
Wake up DOnt trust the MEDIA!!!
November 26, 2004 at 4:50 am
Woman in Charge of Self
Just Wondering,
is that last query directed to anyone or to Man in Charge?
WICOS
November 23, 2004 at 1:43 pm
Just Wundering
So you all say the signs are obvious but I think I’m a but naive. Answer me this: Is a brother who reads Jerome Dickey and loves black love story movies suspect or just a sensitive guy in tough with his feelings?
November 7, 2004 at 6:34 pm
Just Me
Man In Charge –
I am dealing with a guy just like you. I don’t know for sure if he’s on the DL, but there are signs. I only say I don’t know for sure is because he has not verbally told me and I have asked him directly and he has denied it. I can’t just tell him “You are a liar”. I can just tell from some comments that he has made to me that he may have had sexually dealings with a man. I stay with him because when he is not angry I actually enjoy being with him and it’s not just sexual. I just make sure that each and every time I use protection. He has some very deep issues that he does not feel free to discuss with me for whatever reason.
I have read most of your posts because you are very interesting. I don’t think it is fair for you to consider people “ignorant or uneducated” just because they have negative opinions of the DL lifestyle. You are like two different people. In some post, you are feeled with so much anger using the terms “bitch, skank, ho”– now how educated is that. And then I read your other posts and I can really see that you are a “nice” guy as you say.
Your wife seems to have a lot of “growing” up to do but how fair is it to blame her for something you truly make a conscious decision to do on your own. If this is something you enjoy, how is that her fault. And if you think that a man won’t blackmail you think again. Men try to hide their feelings but their emotions are just as strong if not stronger than women. So be very careful when you try and leave these guys along even though they are your “buddies”, and you say they are getting the same things out of the “relationship” than you are. I hope these comments don’t bring out those harsh phrase you are so familiar with, because I am far from ignorant or uneducated.
And just because I continue to deal with my “friend” definitely doesn’t make me desparate for a man, because that is far from the truth. Till next time…
JustMe
October 6, 2004 at 9:57 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Man in Charge,
Now that my computer is behaving, I am hoping to converse with you when you get a moment. I’ve been doing a great deal of research and want to explore some of the issues with you.
Peace,
WICOS
September 27, 2004 at 11:49 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Hi All,
Since my computer had been down and out…I have been doing a great deal of reading on issues both directly and tangentially related to the DL.
There was one interesting yet very troubling statistic that I found related to those LEAST likely to practice safe sex. Although Black males were not the most likely, it was noted that heterosexual Black females are LEAST likely to practice safe sex via condom usage. What could be going on with Black females that they are among the least likely to practice safe sex?
Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the rationale behind the admonition against “males laying with males” found in Leviticus? For instance, the admonition against eating shell fish is related to the fact that although shell fish may taste good, it is not a physically healthy dietary choice, as its purpose is to clean the water. Is the warning about males laying with males related to a health issue? I ask because only that which sounds like anal sex is addressed—there is no reference to the orientation itself or other acts by males such as kissing or hugging or other displays of affectionate or sexual attachment. Most notably, there is no similar admonition for females. As I am not the ultimate Bible scholar, I am hoping someone might have a revelation on this issue.
Also, given that the DL is related to issues surrounding masculinity, feelings of fear and shame, and concerns about rejection and loss, is there anything that we can begin to do in the Black community to make it easier for young Black bisexual and gay males to feel safe enough and loved enough to openly come out from down be-low? I ask because, if we want men to be honest and not be on the down low, they have to be given a reason to choose visibility over invisibility.
Peace…
September 20, 2004 at 12:00 am
Woman in Charge of Self
I’s back nah…
So, exactly what do people mean when they say that gay/bi men “have a choice” or that they “choose” to be gay or bi? In other words, are people suggesting that such sexual orientations are “by choice” instead of by predestination?
September 17, 2004 at 6:08 pm
A Believer
I have now become more aware in some aspects about the life style of a brother on the down low. As for “Man In Charge” you have given the most insight. I myself being a God fearing, Jesus believing woman I feel the most concern for you. Not for your ignorance because I believe you have presented yourself to be very intellectual. I feel fear and from some statements anger. Now to rehash all that has been said. But thank you for the awareness you have given me. I hope you can move beyond the pain of your past because it is leading to destruction in the future. Free yourself “Man in charge” and be the Man God intended for you to be.
As for the women posting notes we may never understand the logistics of the DL lifestyle, I don’t understand life in general sometimes but I do know each person has a choice. Choose wisely and if a decision can not be made with a sure foundation don’t make the decesion at all, pray and let the answer come. Trust me you will get answers but we can sometimes become inpatient. Be still and let the answers come to you!
August 29, 2004 at 6:26 pm
Trying to understand
Woman in charge of Self,
You are right when you say that another person cannot control something that another grown person is determined to do, and I am well aware of this fact. And I TOTALLY agree with this fact. The only reason I asked Candiescane that question was to get HIS perspective on this issue. He says that he is a 43-year old white transexual man who has sex with supposedly “Straight Black Married Men.” I just wanted to get his take on these issues, even though I already have my own views which are pretty much the same as yours. However, I wanted more information from him because I find it interesting that many men say that they would not sleep with other men if they could have a variety of different women or if their wives or girlfriends were making them happier. For example, in a previous post Man in Charge stated, “I must say, if I could get away with having many women and they all knew about each other, I would be in a man’s heaven. I would have no need or desire to be with other men. My sexual needs would all be met and I would not have to worry about messy divorces or complaining demands.” To me, these statements implied that his having sex with other men is not based upon the fact that he is going to sleep with other men regardless, but rather it is based upon ways in which women could satisfy his needs better and prevent him from engaging in such behavior.
I wanted to know if Candiescane had ran across such men and if so what were his thoughts on such views. I was not trying to beat a dead horse, cause any controversy, or constantly ask the same questions over and over, but I was merely trying to understand from men themselves with varied experiences the reasons why they think men engage in this downlow behavior. Sometimes, in my opinion, this issue can be a bit confusing because everyone has a different view point. Some men say that they can stop at any time, and it is just something they just “do”, some men say they can’t stop and they are just too “caught up” in the life, some men say that it is their wives or girlfriend’s fault or women’s fault in general. Some men say that they are just “freaks” and just like to try anything. Some say they were just born bisexual or gay and are simply afraid to come out because of society. With all this information floating around sometimes it is enough to make my head spin. As stated earlier in this and previous post, I am not on here to judge or beat dead issues into the ground, I am simply a sister trying to make it who hopes that one day I will find a totally straight man who will have the qualities that I am looking for who will be good to me. One thing is for sure though, I totally believe that a woman cannot stop a man from having sex with another man no matter what she does.
August 27, 2004 at 6:18 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
“Also, from your perspective, do you think there is anything that black females married to black males can do to try to prevent this type of behavior?”
OK, my computer has been on the blink…
I am astonished to come back to such a question.
But, I will go ahead and answer it myself. You can control him by brute force! OK, let me be serious. Why are you wondering how you can control someone else?
The long and short of the answer is no, no, and double no…
YOU cannot prevent anything that another grown person is determined to do.
The End.
August 25, 2004 at 5:20 pm
trying to understand
Candiescandy,
I appreciate your honesty concerning this issue and your additional insight. In your opinion, have you come across any “straight black men” that you think would not have sex with you under ANY circumstances, or do you think that you could get any straight black man to have sex with you if the situation was right? Also, from your perspective, do you think there is anything that black females married to black males can do to try to prevent this type of behavior? Do the men you have sex with say that it is because their wives are not making them happy or do you think they are just secretly attracted to you? Also out of the black men that you are having sex with, do you think they could stop having sex with you or other men at any time, or do you think that having sex with other men is something that they could not stop even if they tried? If you read this post, please respond to these questions. I would really like to know your perspective on these issues.
August 24, 2004 at 3:21 am
candiescandy
After reading most of the posts here, i had to stop and respond to a lady to asks, if any man will tell on here the things she needs to look for to avoid a downlow brother.
I suppose i should start with my lifestyle, i am a white cross dresser, transexual, drag queen, sissy,…i think that will give you a picture of me, 43, 31 waist long smooth legs, and, not trying to be foul mouthed here, but a tail that seems to be a magnet for a certain class of men..
MARRIED, 29-89 YEAR OLD BLACK STRAIGHT MEN….
I also love to be with this type of man, because i basically know hes clean, i sure dont want any disease any more than you do.
Having dated over, well over 150 black married men, 80 percent more than three times, i promise you i know the needs that make a straight man stray, and it matters not if you think im just full of ..it, think about it, what do i have to gain or lose by telling the truth here? black married men start out the same 90 percent of the time with me, needing the immediate gratification they feel when then receive a blow job, and let me add, i also promise you, black men have absolutely no use for rubbers. Ive never seen one keep a rubber on, never. Secondly i have found that once a black man has gotten a blow job from a thing with sexy lingerie or mini skirts and 5 inch spikes, a black man can , or at least with me it seems, not quit after his first orgasm, and then quickly becomes focused on taking me and making me his by making love to me. yes i mean anal and out of 500 times i have never seen a black man that would wear a rubber.
which is a reason i prefer married men, i dont chase them, but i do know im not going to turn them down, if they dont get it from me, they aint going home anyway, and i pretty much know im in no danger with them. Well, there you have my two cents worth of a answer for you, if i can help or answer any more for you im candiescandy@yahoo.com feel free to write to me…..but dont hate me, im just a lonely tranny who has to take what i can get, when i can get it,i wish i could be totally female and married to a black man, i feel your pain, but even though i may seem to be part of the problem, out here letting downlow brothers have my body, i must tell you this, if i didnt give it up to the men i have met, they wouldnot go home anyway. they are out there looking if they find me, and yes i love them so much that i cant refuse them, but if it were not me,it would be someone else.
Oh yes you definatelly should be concerned about your husbands freinds that are allways around, i know that i personally have met over fifty wifes of the men ive slept with and they have never had a clue, never. Also watch out for young or just generally feminine white men that your husband works with, from cops on down to about any profession, thats one way black married men mask their sissy whore lovers. WEll bye for now,,,,,kisses candy
August 20, 2004 at 10:54 pm
Man in Charge
There has been a little action here, I see. One disturbing thing (Woman in Charge, Im feeling your amusement as well), is the sudden re-appearance of the “Holier than Thou” crowd. I find it hard to understand why so many women flock to the dogmatic Christian belief system which has things such as this in their scriptures:
“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (1 Timothy 2:11-14)
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:34)
“Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as christ also is the head of the church, he himself being the savior of the body. But as the church is subject to christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.” (Ephesians 5:22-24)
Women who cling to their “holy” book and then try to come here (and elsewhere) to beat others over the head with it need to STOP. The Muslim woman who came here should take another look at Islam as well. Under the Sharia Law, the woman MUST wear a Hijab (a hideous garment which covers mostly the entire body, and in traditional Muslim countries must cover ALL of the body except one eye). WTF? Being with another man is punisable by death allright, but for a woman, simply showing her legs in public can bring death by stoning. A brother may kill his sister if he feels that she has brought on shame. The religion of Islam is one of my most hated things, but I dont want to get into that here. I see religions as the precursor to secular government. Merely the embryonic form of government which was used in ancient times to control large groups of people under fear of death or Godly punishments and curses. I believe in a Higher Power which is greater than me, but dont try to give it/he/she a name, or a certain “house” to live in. That’s a whole other discussion I dont want to get into.
TO EVITA:
Please dont “rest on your laurels” and think that you have done it all and finished your schooling. Even the slighest distraction from your childhood/schooling could lead to disaster. Im hoping that your presence here is merely a learning experience and the opportunity to join a discussion with women about men on the DL. I still feel that you should be concentrating on something else other than the DL (or anything sexual for that matter), but I dont want you to feel unwelcome. Face it, even the movies have ratings, and if this board was rated, it would definitely be rated “R”
TO “PEST_IN_THE_BUSINESS”
“Are there straight men out there who honestly prefer NOT to watch two women go at it or Any Porn?”
NOT NORMAL ONES! Come on ladies! Men are men are men are men. It doesnt matter what race they are, what country they live in, or what religion they are. At a most basic biological/psychological level, all men are the same. They are pleasure seekers, territorialist, competitive and emotional (that’s supposed to be a secret). ANY man, given the right situation, would have sex with another man. That situation could be prison, or perhaps a drunken moment, or curiousity, or even in a dream state (never happening in real life).
Women are similarly the same on a biological/psychological level. They seek security, a mate that they can (attempt to) possess, and children. Theirs is a quest for sameness, security, and a “settled” lifestyle. They cannot understand why they cannot be the all-solving, all-providing center of “their” man’s life. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN! Men are dynamic, seek new things, and are dissatisfied with sameness. I must say, if I could get away with having many women and they all knew about each other, I would be in a man’s heaven. I would have no need or desire to be with other men. My sexual needs would all be met and I would not have to worry about messy divorces or complaining demands. Even then, I would still need other diversions like my sports, my car, exploring, being with my “straight” male friends for guy stuff (not sex).
There is a saying that gay men have about straight men- QUESTION: What is the difference between a straight man and a gay man? ANSWER: About a fifth of good alcohol.
August 17, 2004 at 5:25 pm
Trying to understand
One more question/comment Man in Charge,
It seems that you are saying that your desire for other men stems from your inability to have your sexual desires met by several different women. You are saying that you have sex with men to simply fulfill sexual needs that are not being met because they need to be fulfilled by different women. This would imply that you are not really turned on or attracted to other men but rather have sex with other men to satisfy or give a purely sexual release. But this is very hard concept for me to understand. How can you have sex with someone without even being somewhat attracted to them on some level? Therefore, it seems that sex with other men is not based upon sexual needs that are not being fulfilled by women, but rather sex with other men is based upon your attraction on some level to other men. And if this is the case, no matter how many women you are having sex with and no matter how they are fulling your sexual needs you would still have a desire to be with another man. You, yourself, said that men crave variety and dislike “sameness” so at some point have sex with dozens of women would get old too. It seems that the bottom line is that some men are purely bisexual by nature and really have a underlying attraction for other men. And it seems that it doesn’t matter if they have one good woman or fifty great women, if there is a desire in them some where to have sex with other men at some point they will.
August 17, 2004 at 4:13 pm
trying to understand
Man in charge, you may correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you are saying that all men have some bisexual tendencies and that all men will have sex with another man. While I am aware that there are a certain percentage of men who will engage in such activities, it is very difficult to believe that ANY man will given the right situation. There have GOT to be some men out there that would not have sex with another man under any circumstance. As a female, I would never, under any circumstances, have sex with another female or even think of having sex with another female no matter how drunk I get, and trust me, I have been drunk before but I have never wanted to get with one of my girls; therefore, it is very difficult to believe that any man would get with one of his boys. In a way, it seems like you are saying that all men are really bisexual to some extent and that whether or not they act on their bisexuality depends on the situation. You may correct me if I am wrong, but I am trying to get a clear understanding of what you are really saying.
Also, it seems as if you are saying that a man could never really be truly faithful to a woman because men are constantly “seeking new things” and are “dissatisfied with sameness.” However, what if a man had a woman who was everthing that he could imagine in one woman? What if she was a total package? What if she was willing to live life and try new things with him to help the relationship from getting routine? What if she was spontaneous, fun, sexy, attractive, intelligent,interesting, etc? Why would a man with a woman like this need to go outside the relationship? Are you saying that even if a man has all his needs fulfilled at home he will still be dissatisfied because no matter how wonderful his woman is he can never be satisfied with “sameness.” I know that men who are unhappy may cheat, but are you saying that even if a man is happy his biological/psychological makeup which dislikes “sameness” and is constantly searching for “newness” will cause him to cheat.
It almost seems like you are saying that at some point, no matter how wonderful you are as a woman, and no matter how much a man says he loves you he will ultimately cheat on you because he simply desires something “new” even if its not something better. Futhermore, in a nutshell, it sounds like you are saying that no matter how wonderful a woman is her man will ultimately cheat on her and that if he is in the right circumstance and possibly drunk that he will even have sex with one of his boys.
August 17, 2004 at 4:20 am
Man in Charge
There has been a little action here, I see. One disturbing thing (Woman in Charge, Im feeling your amusement as well), is the sudden re-appearance of the “Holier than Thou” crowd. I find it hard to understand why so many women flock to the dogmatic Christian belief system which has things such as this in their scriptures:
“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (1 Timothy 2:11-14)
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:34)
“Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as christ also is the head of the church, he himself being the savior of the body. But as the church is subject to christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.” (Ephesians 5:22-24)
Women who cling to their “holy” book and then try to come here (and elsewhere) to beat others over the head with it need to STOP. The Muslim woman who came here should take another look at Islam as well. Under the Sharia Law, the woman MUST wear a Hijab (a hideous garment which covers mostly the entire body, and in traditional Muslim countries must cover ALL of the body except one eye). WTF? Being with another man is punisable by death allright, but for a woman, simply showing her legs in public can bring death by stoning. A brother may kill his sister if he feels that she has brought on shame. The religion of Islam is one of my most hated things, but I dont want to get into that here. I see religions as the precursor to secular government. Merely the embryonic form of government which was used in ancient times to control large groups of people under fear of death or Godly punishments and curses. I believe in a Higher Power which is greater than me, but dont try to give it/he/she a name, or a certain “house” to live in. That’s a whole other discussion I dont want to get into.
TO EVITA:
Please dont “rest on your laurels” and think that you have done it all and finished your schooling. Even the slighest distraction from your childhood/schooling could lead to disaster. Im hoping that your presence here is merely a learning experience and the opportunity to join a discussion with women about men on the DL. I still feel that you should be concentrating on something else other than the DL (or anything sexual for that matter), but I dont want you to feel unwelcome. Face it, even the movies have ratings, and if this board was rated, it would definitely be rated “R”
TO “PEST_IN_THE_BUSINESS”
“Are there straight men out there who honestly prefer NOT to watch two women go at it or Any Porn?”
NOT NORMAL ONES! Come on ladies! Men are men are men are men. It doesnt matter what race they are, what country they live in, or what religion they are. At a most basic biological/psychological level, all men are the same. They are pleasure seekers, territorialist, competitive and emotional (that’s supposed to be a secret). ANY man, given the right situation, would have sex with another man. That situation could be prison, or perhaps a drunken moment, or curiousity, or even in a dream state (never happening in real life).
Women are similarly the same on a biological/psychological level. They seek security, a mate that they can (attempt to) possess, and children. Theirs is a quest for sameness, security, and a “settled” lifestyle. They cannot understand why they cannot be the all-solving, all-providing center of “their” man’s life. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN! Men are dynamic, seek new things, and are dissatisfied with sameness. I must say, if I could get away with having many women and they all knew about each other, I would be in a man’s heaven. I would have no need or desire to be with other men. My sexual needs would all be met and I would not have to worry about messy divorces or complaining demands. Even then, I would still need other diversions like my sports, my car, exploring, being with my “straight” male friends for guy stuff (not sex).
There is a saying that gay men have about straight men- QUESTION: What is the difference between a straight man and a gay man? ANSWER: About a fifth of good alcohol.
August 15, 2004 at 12:23 pm
Curious Nupe
You say you are a Kappa. You must have pledged grad Chapter where you could buy your way in because all the real MADE Kappas, thrive on good old fashion pussy and all I can say is if your a Brother on the DL your a fraud as a man and a paid to get in Kappa.
August 10, 2004 at 12:29 am
Peggy
I have only recently become aware of men on the DL but from all the posts that I have read on here, the articles that I have just recently read in Essence and other publications, I think people are forgetting the real issue…these men are messing around period!! Granted, it’s shocking that there are so many of our men sleeping around with other men of all things (and remain in denial of who they really are and what they do) but honestly isn’t the REAL issue that they are lying to and cheating on the women that they so called “love” and care for?? I’m so disgusted and saddened that society will now have another thing to add to the list of things they find wrong with the African American community. It’s so shameful to know that countless amounts of articles are going around filled with comments from men that are on the DL and see nothing wrong with their actions. Yet, they also have the nerve to blame it on the women in their lives or how the African American community will look down on them instead of standing up, being REAL MEN and admitting to their actions and start blaming themselves! It doesn’t matter to me if it’s with a man or a woman. What really matters are those men that chose to live that kind of lifestyle, LIE about it, and come home to wives and children and look them in the eyes each day while knowing that they go out and disgrace themselves and their families every single day! Shame. Cheating is a sign of poor character, self-esteem, and moral. If you don’t have enough balls to look your woman in the eye, admit that the relationship needs work, and be honest about what you are really are missing in the relationship to work it out, then you are not even close to being a real man. A man of proper character and even an ounce of dignity would at least give the women that he loves a chance to make amends. Even more so, a man with true dignity would never step out of his relationship for ANYONE, he would rather divorce if things can’t be amended and move on knowing that his character is still intact. If you are a so called man that can’t do that…then you are more like a child to me. Only cowards creep around outside of their relationships instead of working things out. Just goes to show how we have become a society of people that would rather have everything, give very little, lie and cheat in order to make ourselves happy all while looking into the eyes of so called “loved ones” each day and lie straight to their faces. What are you doing to yourselves??? For all you men on the DL…the next time you are creeping around, take the time to look at yourself in the mirror long and hard…think about how you are deceiving your wife or girlfriend, and possible children! Can you honestly wake up the next morning look at your wife or heaven forbid, children, knowing what you did the night before? Does it make you feel good? Is that the kind of man you want as an example to your kids, family, and friends?? Can you really live with yourself everyday…lying and messing around? Is that moment’s gratification worth the shame in your heart and YEARS of lies and deception?? THINK ABOUT IT!! WAKE UP!! I really don’t understand how you men in the DL can live with yourselves? What if it was your daughter and her man was doing the same things that you are? Would you want that? Would you accept it?
August 10, 2004 at 12:28 am
Peggy
I have only recently become aware of men on the DL but from all the posts that I have read on here, the articles that I have just recently read in Essence and other publications, I think people are forgetting the real issue…these men are messing around period!! Granted, it’s shocking that there are so many of our men sleeping around with other men of all things (and remain in denial of who they really are and what they do) but honestly isn’t the REAL issue that they are lying to and cheating on the women that they so called “love” and care for?? I’m so disgusted and saddened that society will now have another thing to add to the list of things they find wrong with the African American community. It’s so shameful to know that countless amounts of articles are going around filled with comments from men that are on the DL and see nothing wrong with their actions. Yet, they also have the nerve to blame it on the women in their lives or how the African American community will look down on them instead of standing up, being REAL MEN and admitting to their actions and start blaming themselves! It doesn’t matter to me if it’s with a man or a woman. What really matters are those men that chose to live that kind of lifestyle, LIE about it, and come home to wives and children and look them in the eyes each day while knowing that they go out and disgrace themselves and their families every single day! Shame. Cheating is a sign of poor character, self-esteem, and moral. If you don’t have enough balls to look your woman in the eye, admit that the relationship needs work, and be honest about what you are really are missing in the relationship to work it out, then you are not even close to being a real man. A man of proper character and even an ounce of dignity would at least give the women that he loves a chance to make amends. Even more so, a man with true dignity would never step out of his relationship for ANYONE, he would rather divorce if things can’t be amended and move on knowing that his character is still intact. If you are a so called man that can’t do that…then you are more like a child to me. Only cowards creep around outside of their relationships instead of working things out. Just goes to show how we have become a society of people that would rather have everything, give very little, lie and cheat in order to make ourselves happy all while looking into the eyes of so called “loved ones” each day and lie straight to their faces. What are you doing to yourselves??? For all you men on the DL…the next time you are creeping around, take the time to look at yourself in the mirror long and hard…think about how you are deceiving your wife or girlfriend, and possible children! Can you honestly wake up the next morning look at your wife or heaven forbid, children, knowing what you did the night before? Does it make you feel good? Is that the kind of man you want as an example to your kids, family, and friends?? Can you really live with yourself everyday…lying and messing around? Is that moment’s gratification worth the shame in your heart and YEARS of lies and deception?? THINK ABOUT IT!! WAKE UP!! I really don’t understand how you men in the DL can live with yourselves? What if it was your daughter and her man was doing the same things that you are? Would you want that? Would you accept it? What men on the DL are doing is SELFISH! Plain and simple! I would rather have my man be honest with me then to put me at risk for AIDS and/or disgrace his family in such away, let alone himself. Bottom line, if you are on the DL you are CHEATING…there is no sugar coating that like you do in your denial of what you do and who you define yourself to be. No matter if it’s with a man or a woman…it’s cheating and there is NEVER any feeling good about that! (Oh and for those men on here that think it’s “unnatural” for men to be in a monogamous relationship then don’t be in one!! Get out of any relationship you are in, spare the women the lies, and live the life you want. Don’t keep a woman around for no good reason. You are only “trapped” in a relationship if you want to be. You found a way into the relationship, you damn well could get out if you really want too. You only making matters worse, for you and her the longer you prolong a relationship that you are unhappy with.)
July 31, 2004 at 11:48 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Rapture:
Hhmmm, sounds a bit like you are…well…uh…”caught up.” So, what is YOUR issue that makes THIS issue spark such a God complex in you? Just wondering. What goes on in the mind of a Christian to make them think that they can pronounce such curses on others. I think the job is to “love” people to Christ.
By the way, who was your first crush?
July 31, 2004 at 8:45 pm
Rapture
DL
When you look in the mirror do you see a human or does the flame look back at you?A spirit of perversity, depravity, destruction and extreme vulgarity?[b] From the mind of Satan does such come not the intentions of God, get it straight, and to HELL IT WILL RETURN
Personally I believe paraphila of all natures( beastalism, incest..ectera) exist due to lack of belief that Hell is the penality for such choices rest assured those of you who have fallen victim to that which is not man nor woman and less than animal.
July 30, 2004 at 7:01 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Pest in the business:
mouth
open
no
words
dead
space
heart
hurts
i
am
speech
less
July 30, 2004 at 1:23 pm
Pest_in_the_business
Female, Straight. Never met a truly straight man for my truly straight self,(meaning I love men and won’t share, am not attracted to women and do not respond to them). My ex-husband took too long to learn my female body, too long to marry (at which time abuses began) and he hinted for my back in preference to my front. I just said “NO”. Are there straight men out there who honestly prefer NOT to watch two women go at it or Any Porn? I hate when men beg lesbian acts of me, since it takes them so many weeks to realize I really meant NO when I said that. Pay attention, men. Did God make a mistake when he made me the only straight person on the planet? Who can you fool with that?
Want to remarry what I am MADE for. Don’t need Porn. A live man in live flesh is always best and, thank God, I don’t need fantasies and drugs to enhance what’s natural for me. Too basic for Americans? Doubtful. Help; straight women and men are as good as the rest of you. I feel I have to wear a symbol to show I am straight so the wrong crowd quits crowding me and passing rumors to their own hurt. I a;ways say, “no”, so find me a way to say, “friendly, fine, but not marriage,” without offending your kinder representatives as some alternately gendered angry people have offended me over the decades. Seems there’s no leaving the local multi-gendered scene without experiencing straight-bashing in GR, MI. I’m abused and poor enough long enough, thank you. Next time I’m misrepresented or forced into a corner I don’t belong in (framed), I’ll have to name the one who knocks me down, whistle blower for fake whistle blower, even if it’s a friend or relative who hurts me,again.
Nice to be nice, but, I have a right to be real to myself. That stance deserves equal respect. By the way, my first sex was my ex. How could I find out clues before he had all the time in the world to practice lies? Please don’t e-mail me or try the dumb nickel psychology about why I didn’t catch his hints. He didn’t drop any a straight religious person who forgives an ex-con prisoner whose only crime was “theft” would understand. He made darn sure of it. Sorry, but not all variants are honest people. Get me out of your crowd or accept my symbol for being straight without being offended.
July 29, 2004 at 10:31 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Trying to Understand:
Ok, I did not say you had to MOVE to any of those places. I was instead suggesting a change of scenery. Perhaps a brief vacation or visit. Please note that I was very specific in my choices. I did not say hop on over to Paris or London (although quite a hapnin’ place) or Mexico. I chose those particular places because of some of the cultural dynamics and freedom. There is something about the freedom to simply BE in those places that lessens the need for the down low and increases the possibility that you will meet men who are up front about their sexuality and men who have nothing to hide. Plus, there are some really interesting men in those places. The men in Toronto are extremely friendly and everyone in Amsterdam is quite happy to be alive. What do you have to lose? By the way, women in many parts of Europe hang out and walk alone at midnight without a care in the world. You might want to give it a try. If you do not want to go it alone…maybe that curly head man might want to go with you 😉
–Peace
July 29, 2004 at 9:27 pm
Evita
I had my first crush when I was in kindergarden, too. He was my classmate. He was a shorty and always. We did gymnastics together, day camp, and always hung out together. He gave me hugs around my waist because he only came to my chest. To this day he still only comes to my chest. It’s funny when I see him because he has this deep voice and he is only about 4’10” and I’m 5’2″.
July 29, 2004 at 9:21 pm
Evita
To Man in Charge:
When I said that i was discovering what I wanting in a relationship and with men I was meaning that by the time I get grown I will know what I want and not be sleeping with every Tom, Hank and Harry, trying to figure out what I want. I’m in 10th grade not the 9th and really not the 8th because that would be very embarrassing if I was 15 in the 8th grade. It’s seems like you don’t like nobody that doesn’t agree with YOU or YOUR way of life.
I’m not asking you to be my peer. I didn’t come on this board to make friends or enemies. I’m not planning on getting pregnant no time soon and I’m very focused on school and anybody that knows me can tell you that. Whether they’re grown or not. Just because I know men doesn’t mean that I’m dating them. Most the men I know that I consider friends are police officers, educators, or just friends of the family, and if it was a problem with me having these male friends I’m sure my father would let me know. Yes, he knows each and every one of them. So, don’t try to make it seem like that just because I decided to join in on this conversation, school is the last thing on my mind because it’s not. I have many awards and trophies to prove that. I know girls younger than me with babies. If I did something like that I wouldn’t even be able to show my face know I would disappoint alot of people that speak highly of me.
I’m not trying to pose as a 100% pure angel child. Just don’t misjudge me just because I want to join in on the convo. Man In Charge if I’m that much of a problem I would just rather you not read nor respond to what I have to say because it seems that you don’t want me on this board. So please, if thats how you feel believe me I won’t be disappointed. I do plan on enjoying my childhood life as long as I can.
“To Misjudge me, is to not know me”
July 29, 2004 at 4:38 pm
trying to understand
Woman in Charge,
After giving what you wrote some serious thought, and also thinking about the men I have been attracted to over the years, I realized that in many cases, I have been attracted to men that have not been totally straight. However, now I just have to think about how I am going to break out of this cycle. I think it is because of what you stated earlier. Non-heterosexual men can be some of the most charming, intelligent, interesting, and attractive men you meet. I am really going to have to make a conscious effort to not want to be in a relationship with these types of men. I appreciate your feedback because it made me think about the part I am playing in my situations. However, c’mon, Woman in Charge, dont’t you think suggesting that I move to Amsterdam, Canada, or Germany was a bit over the top? 🙂 It’s not THAT bad here in the U.S. I’m pretty sure that once I break out of some of my old habits I will find what I am looking for eventually. But, thanks for the feedback. Also, by the way, my first crush was also to a little boy in my kindergarten class. He had really curly hair, and he always picked up stuff like bugs and frogs and tried to put them on me. You would’ve thought that I wouldn’t have liked him, but for some odd reason, I liked him and I thought he was cute even though we were always fighting.
July 29, 2004 at 3:25 pm
concerned4u
My first crush was on my mother’s best friend’s son when i was around 7. He was a dark chocolate boy with tons of beautiful curly black hair. He was my crush until i was 14 & he was my first boyfriend. We still speak today, both only have one child, have a similar degree & single! And his birthday is 6 months & 2 days before mine!!!!
July 29, 2004 at 2:54 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
OK, Evita sparked/reignited my thinking about something. A related issue came up at a seminar on how to prevent school bullying.
Would everyone please answer a question?
At what age did you have your first crush or boyfriend or girlfriend?
I’m hoping the results will tell us all something about human attraction.
I’ll go first…
My first crush was in kindergarten. Actually, I had two crushes. The first one was on a family friend. I guess he was about 18. He was so kind and nice to everyone. I thought he was the bee’s knees. Please note, as I grew older I realized he was gay. I guess I started early with the draw towards non hetero males. At any rate, my main crush was on another five year old. He was the smartest, cutest, and toughest little boy in the a.m. kindergarten. This crush lasted until 7th grade. Our birthdays were 1 day apart and I have always been drawn to males who resemble my first five year old love. As far as I know, decades later, he is straight.
Awaiting your responses…
July 29, 2004 at 11:08 am
Woman in Charge of Self
Good Morning Dorothy,
U-said:
“Muslim men are allowed up to 4 wives. Being with a man is punishable by death, but as a Muslim man, you can still have your cake and eat it too, and you don’t have to do anything downlow, because we Muslim women know that polygamy is the right of the man”
I am curious about what prompted your interest in the DL if as, a Muslim woman, this issue is not a real concern for you. The ability of a gay or bisexual man to have 1,000,000 wives will do precious little to curb his orientation if he in fact is oriented to men. The issue is not about what people “should” (think about sexual predator religious leaders) be doing but what men are, in fact, doing.
I have noted that many people use this board to preach their religious views which somehow end in telling someone else that they are ultimate wrong, dammed to hell, or in a hand basket on the way. Individuals who are extremely invested in converting and condemning are probably more intimately dealing with the DL than they can or wish to acknowledge. It is my prayer that all of you who need to play God use that energy to uncover your own wisdom in service of showing something that looks like the mercy and grace you have so freely been given.
Everyone on this board is just plain ole everyday PEOPLE…not G-O-D…just plain ole people…
July 29, 2004 at 10:00 am
Dorothy Jones
I have read some of these posting’s. Yes, “Man in Charge” is right, but what you need is Islam, not Jesus or a man. Muslim men are allowed up to 4 wives. Being with a man is punishable by death, but as a Muslim man, you can still have your cake and eat it too, and you don’t have to do anything downlow, because we Muslim women know that polygamy is the right of the man, but we are still taken care of.
Salam Muta
July 28, 2004 at 11:33 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Hi Man in Charge,
Seems like I have known you for a lifetime…have I?
“Are you a psychologist?”
Aren’t we all? 😉
If I happened to be a psychologist-type, I would not indicate such on a board for several reasons. First, I would not want people to place any more stock in anything that I say versus anything anyone else says simply because they believe that I have some unusual insight. Second, I would not want to stifle the flow of the discussion as people assume that someone on the board is trying to “read their minds.”
I am everyday people…
Alright, catching up wore me out. I’m signing off for the night. Man in Charge, have a blessed night.
p.s. To all of my Christian siblings on this board…be careful about passing judgment and “cursing” folks. You know what THE WORD says about the judgment you pass on others. So, cut that crap out.
–Peace to All and to All a Good Night–
July 28, 2004 at 11:17 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
To: Trying to Understand…
Hey Sis,
Several years ago, Ebony did a cover story on “Cover Girls.” Cover Girls are also known as “beards.” Cover girls are the women that men on the DL use to distract anyone from attending to the possibility of the DL. If I recall that article correctly, it may have focused on traits in women that make them more likely to be sought by a DL male. When I asked Man in Charge for the low down on the traits DL men look for in a partner, I was hoping that he might give up the funk on that one. I am going to ask him to give it some more thought and give us some more bare bones info. I have my thoughts, but I would rather you hear it from a true source of the wisdom. I suspect that you too have your thoughts.
Let’s see…DL men are attracted to you. Ok, not to hack you off, but have you considered that you too are somehow drawn to men on the DL? What is it about those types of males that draw you? Is it any of the stuff that I have mentioned?
One thing that is important for women to understand is that there is nothing wrong with being attracted to a man who is not heterosexual—although you desire one who IS heterosexual. The mere fact that a man is not heterosexual will not preclude you from feeling attracted and desiring to be connected to such a man. It really is OK. One just has to also accept that simply because one is attracted to someone does not mean that “something has to happen” or that “things have to go somewhere.” Just enjoy the attraction. It’s sort of like smelling roses in the park. Just because they are pretty and smell good and you can appreciate them does not mean that you need to whip out your pruning shears and take ‘em home with you.
Regarding where to find DL men…church, work, the NAACP, fraternities, political organizations, school, etc. OK, I know what you mean. I’m just being real…but ridiculous. I have noted the most plentiful, beautiful, and upwardly mobile DL Black men in (and around) Chocolate City, Hotlanta, Chi-Town, Houston, Callie, Philly, The Big Easy, and the Big Apple. I understand that Cleveland is up and coming. Here’s the kicker, Black straight men who live in these cities are renowned for acting a complete fool when it comes to playing games with Black women because they know about the ratio of straight Black women to straight Black men and believe (realistically) that Black women in such areas are willing to put up with a whole bunch of crap to keep a piece of a “good” straight man. In any of those cities, you are going to have your work cut out for you!
You might consider crossing some boundaries. I assume you live in the U.S. Might I suggest you venture to Canada, Amsterdam, and Germany? You just might find something you did not know you were looking for…
By the way, you, with your self described degree having, taking care of yourself, hardworking, attractive, sensitive, and self-doubting self are a serious DL magnet. I would imagine that you are going to almost have to be counter intuitive in almost forcing yourself to NOT be drawn to that which you are naturally drawn. The first thing I might consider doing is asking myself, what is it about these men that compels me? The lack of total emotional availability is often a draw for many Black women who have grown up with a parent who was on some level unavailable. Man in Charge spoke on issues related to Black boys who grow up without a salient father figure. Girls who grow up with similar dynamics are also at risk for seeking out partners who foster some of the same negative dynamics of childhood.
A relationship with a DL man is sometimes the same family soup warmed over. The question is “are you full yet?” Are you having a Beyonce’ “Crazy in Love” time or a Tracy Chapman “Smoke and Ashes” time or a Natalie Imbruglia “Torn” time? Check out that Natalie Imbruglia track…a good thought provoking piece.
DO NOT SETTLE for anything that you truly do not want!
P.S. to the other Women…If you “see” your man in an E. Lynn Harris novel…do you really have to ask? Stop, think about it! 😉
July 28, 2004 at 10:40 pm
sonnI
Q: “What is going on with you (and your interactions with Black men)?”
A: Nothing
First hearing about this DL stuff U can’t help but think about your man it’s almost impossible (it’s forced into your head). I have had enough conversation about this topic with my man. Having fait in some statistics, I read that most men are not on the DL. We should be alert but not overparinoid. Wishful thinking maybe… peace of mind maybe.
July 28, 2004 at 10:20 pm
W.I.C.O.S.
Hi Ms. Evita,
I just want to say that I am so glad to share this board with you.
Admittedly, I was alarmed when I also presumed that you were “dating” adult men. Aside from that, let me be clear that regardless of your age, I respect the wisdom that your vantage point brings. As we age, we tend to forget the “purity” of insight that is lost as we leave the innocence of youth. Please forgive.
Although I would prefer for a 15 year old female to be more focused on school, family, and friends than on DL men, I also recognize that adolescents are going through puberty and trying on different social roles and trying to figure out what they want and need in life…and in a romantic partner.
When all is said and done…always be a young girl (and later…woman) in charge of YOU!
–Peace
July 28, 2004 at 10:04 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
“(good news) most men are not on the DL”
Is this truth or wishful thinking?
July 28, 2004 at 10:02 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
“I am currently in a long distance relationship and secure about it, but after news about DL brothers I started thinking about my man. Oh and he str8 (trust).
All this DL stuff gets you so paranoid (good news) most men are not on the DL. To all these DL brothers and all the rest of the race of DL men, Damn you for putting US women through hell with your selfish disgusting ungodly act, and I don’t care who comes behind me and want to say something about my post.”
Hi Sonn1
Whew!
I just have a couple of questions. How is it that you KNOW that your long distance partner is straight in practice and orientation but felt driven to “think about your man” after some press about the DL? What is going on with you (and your interactions with Black men) that the DL garners such a vehement emotional response?
Just asking…
July 28, 2004 at 9:48 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
First, Greetings to my Comrade…Man in Charge. I am sure that you will not mind me using portions of the following post to make a point for the women…‘cause I know U was jus’ yankin’ my
chain 😉
“…I think I could really get next to you! Your writing and your attitude is EXACTLY what I need in my life. Hey, Im good looking, well-educated… I could give up the DL for somebody like you!”
Women,
OK, let’s pretend that your good looking, 28/38/48/58/68 year old, hard working, church going, home owning, kind, “Beemer” driving, and well educated, “eligible” Black male, DL, coworker named Adonis tells you that your spirit and personality are compelling and he believes that you are the type of woman that he could give up “playin’” for and with whom he could settle down.
After you pick up your chin and bottom lip, call all of your women friends, your auntie, your daddy, and your grandma to tell them all (but the DL part) about Mr. Adonis, do you:
a) Tell Adonis, “Thanks, but no thanks.”
b) Giggle and purrrrrrrr at him like Halle Berry as Cat Woman?
c) Think you can “change” him with your feminine whiles?
d) Think he has never been married (and has dodged four previous engagements) because he’s been looking for the perfect God sent woman, and voila, here you are…Adam’s (I mean Adonis’) Rib?
e) Remind yourself (and him, and your grandma, and your posse) that you desire a man who is available to you and who shares your sexual orientation?
f) Get down on your knees and start praising God for finally sending you the man He “promised” you when you sent in that special love offering to Eddie Long’s and TD Jake’s prosperity ministries?
g) Ask yourself, why is Mr. Perfect also “Mr. Perpetually Seeking & Perpetually Unattached” with the overrepresentation of perpetually “perfect women” among Black folks?
Stop, Think About It! (OK, I’ve been watching too much Martin Lawrence).
When Black women are desperate and/or uncertain about values, desires, self esteem, direction, and “bottom lines” they will give the above commentary from a stereotypically desirable man who is married, with children, and admittedly on the DL some very serious, yet vacillating, thought. Some may be willing to compromise what is better for them in the long run for immediate gratification and the hollow promise of long term fulfillment in the short run. Remember what I said about men who are non heterosexual…they are among the MOST attractive, intelligent, provocative, charming men I have encountered in the US and abroad. Inasmuch as I have also been to many cities across the US, I would venture to say that they will also be among the most desirable that YOU, too, will encounter. You will rarely be flattered like a man on the DL can flatter you. You will rarely be charmed like a non heterosexual male can charm you. You will rarely be
intellectually, emotionally and viscerally inspired like a non heterosexual male will inspire you. You will rarely feel as connected and befriended as you will with a non heterosexual male.
You will also rarely be as confused about yourself, your romantic relationship, love, sex, and Black men as you will be in the context of a relationship with a non heterosexual Black male…who is on the DL (to both you and the world). You will be having conversations with yourself weighing the pros and cons of this “good” man. You will be trying to bargain with God about revealing to you if this good man is THE one. You will be trying to reconcile the uneasiness you feel about some intermittent “swishiness” that seeps out. You will be trying to turn cartwheels to be the perfect woman that this perfect man has been seeking. You will try to understand why he may run hot and cold. You will try to control him. You will try to re-orchestrate reality. You will be trying to comprehend his periodic moodiness brought on by the extreme energy it takes to remain covered. You will be perplexed over his extreme homophobia and his latent homoeroticism. You will be trying to rationalize that a man this macho and confident and virile and built could not possibly be on the DL despite how something inside of him lights up when your equally fine younger brother walks into the room. You will be trying to understand the “boys’ night out” activities that sometimes seem to out-prioritize “nights out with you” activities. You will be trying to figure out how to give up what looks sooooo good but feels so bad or, at least, not so good. You will be paranoid about the condom breaking because you will have enough free time on your hands to reread E. Lynn Harris’ first novel and because of the uneasiness you feel about the “swishiness.” If you are young (20’s 30’s 40’s) and have never been married (but refuse to be “with yourself), you will also be trying to desperately hold onto the endangered species.
Remember what Parliament said about endangered species? …endangered species…got to get over the hump…got to get over the hump…got to get over the hump…on guard, defend yourself…when the syndrome is around…don’t let your guard down…all you got to do is call on the Funk…On guard! Protect yourself!…Movin’ in on you, baby…I don’t think you hear me…Closing in on you, baby… To dance is a protection…Funk is your connection…
What is the FUNK? The FUNK is the right good sense God gave you (to make decisions consistent with what is in your ultimate best interest mentally physically, and spiritually) and your “real” male friends, your lucid brothers, and yo’ Daddy! Trust me on this one.
I did not say the FUNK was your single female friends and your sisters and your mother (who is wondering why you…her perfect daughter…are still not married after she and your Daddy paid all of that money for that Fashionetta cotillion dress and for you to go all the way to Spell-man…to get a “good” Kappa, Alpha, Q, Sigma Morehouse man).
Of course, if a man is honest with you and you fully appreciate what it means to be with a man who needs/desires a little more than you encompass, go for what you know…
I must say…Starr Jones looked quite happy the last time I saw her photo.
By the way, does anyone know what is meant by Funkentelechy Vs. The Placebo Syndrome?
July 28, 2004 at 9:14 pm
SonnI
I’m sitting here and attempting to read all of this I will eventually. I can’t believe what this world has developed into; then again I can the bible puts it out there. It’s not just our black men it’s all race of men. I’m a 25 yr old black female and I don’t want to be with nothing else but a black man so their my main concern. I am currently in a long distance relationship and secure about it, but after news about DL brothers I started thinking about my man. Oh and he str8 (trust).
All this DL stuff gets you so paranoid (good news) most men are not on the DL. To all these DL brothers and all the rest of the race of DL men, Damn you for putting US women through hell with your selfish disgusting ungodly act, and I don’t care who comes behind me and want to say something about my post. Ladies we have to engage in deep conversation with our men, and find out who and what they are. Its unfortunate but you will never know anyone even in a whole lifetime. Shame on the DL man who can’t keep it real with his friend and family. Shame on anyone who can’t keep it real with themselves
July 28, 2004 at 7:39 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Oooooh Wee! “Sophia is Home Nah!”
Ok, enough of my tomfoolery…
Wow, I went out of town for a couple of days and returned to quite an energetic dialogue. It is going to take me a moment to digest it all and jump back into the flow of things. I must say that it is times like these that I really appreciate my lack of computer prowess as it would be sooooo much easier to discuss all of these issues verbally. Oh well…
July 28, 2004 at 3:05 pm
trying to understand
Man in Charge,
You are right,and I agree with a lot of your comments. You make some very valid points. However, I am not spending all my time trying to decipher some vibe. I am simply trying to make sure I don’t miss any key signals that could indicate that my man could be on the downlow. In this day and age, sometimes it is hard to differentiate between a man who just has feminine tendencies and who is a mama’s boy from a man who is on the downlow. And yes, I am working very hard to be the female version of everything I am looking for in a man. Even though I may not be perfect, I have all the qualities that a man who has himself together would want. I am intelligent, attractive, kind, and financially independent. I take pride in myself and my apperance and I am not overweight. I have a Master’s degree, and a good job. I am also 100% heterosexual. I try to be everything that I am searching for in a mate; therefore, I don’t think my standards are too high and that I am asking for too much when I look for a man who possesses the same qualities I possess.
July 28, 2004 at 10:23 am
concered4u
It’s cool Man in Charge and i wouldn’t encourage anyone who is not of age or even of age and not ready to have children to enter the world of parenthood.
And contrary to believe, condoms are not a 100% and i grew up with a mother who didn’t believe in birth control, that would mean she was condoning premarital sex & i lived in a small town that going to the local clinic/family doctor was not the “best of ideas”.
def. Evita, stay a child as long as you possibly can, get an education & know & be ready mentally/physically/financially for sex because it can lead to children.
Stats are great but there’s always someone who may meet the criteria and still become just as successful as others. There are options these days, a lot more information/pills than what was out when i had my son. And more than anything know the person you are sleeping with (and that goes for ALL the women on the board). Pregnance can happen & on top of that HIV/AIDS can happen.
Question for Trying to understand- Where are you meeting all of these dl brothas (venue). And are you looking just a little too hard, i thought they said love comes when you aren’t looking & least aspect it.
And right on Man in Charge- yeah we ALL want what you just described in a man, but looks don’t last forever, the mind can go, and finances can dwindle. What about something a little deeper- and he may not look like america’s next top model or have a Phd. but is hardworking and loving.
just words for thought!
July 28, 2004 at 4:25 am
Man in Charge
I can only tell you the truth, and this is it:
“where must I go to find a 100% totally straight man who is intelligent, kind, hardworking, and good-looking? ”
ANSWER:
You may find him, but time is dynamic, and the “100% totally straight man who is intelligent, kind, hardworking, and good-looking” may not exist. You are describing Superman! Even a man who is straight right now may not be in 20 years. Men like that are ATTRACTIVE. That means that they will be a target for both men and OTHER women. Why would a man like that “settle” into marriage? It doesnt make much sense, does it?
Think about this too: Are you the absolute PERFECT woman that he is looking for? Are you the slim, intelligent, well educated, financially independent and sexual powerhouse who could be mistaken for Halle Berry that a man like that probably wants? Please take the rose colored glasses off. If you spend your time suspecting and trying to decipher some “vibe” you think youre getting, you will grow old without love or a companion.
July 28, 2004 at 2:27 am
trying to understand
To Man in Charge,
I know this question may seem odd, but do you think that there are more DL and bisexual brothers in certain states and geographical locations than there are in others? I am not trying to be funny, but what must I do and where must I go to find a 100% totally straight man who is intelligent, kind, hardworking, and good-looking?
July 28, 2004 at 2:20 am
trying to understand
To Woman in Charge,
I totally agree with your post stating that it is hard finding a Black man who has it together that does not exclude a DL vibe. I have been searching so long to find a totally straight Black male with all the right qualities, and I know that it is very difficult. Currently, I am dating this guy that I have been dating off and on, and I love him very much. He is everything that I have ever wanted in a man. He is intelligent, charming, good-looking, the total package. Unfortunately, there are times when I get a DL vibe from him. The things he does are very subtle, but they are enough to raise red flags in my mind. I am going through a hard time right now because I really don’t want to let this man go. I have been visiting this website to gain insight into this lifestyle to see if he possibly fits the DL type. However, I think I already know in my heart that something just isn’t right. Like you said Woman in Charge, I know I must relax and let go, but it is so hard, especially when you don’t have solid proof and you are operating off suspicions. Also, because there are so many Black men on the downlow and I am also afraid to let him go because I am scared I will attract another DL brother. For some reason, I have noticed that DL seem to be attracted to me. At first, before J.L. King came forward and many people started discussing this issue, I thought that the D.L. thing with brothers was just occuring more frequently in my geographical location because it seems that where I live almost all the black men are bisexual or gay. Now, that I realize that this is a national issue with our brothers I am becoming even more discouraged.
July 28, 2004 at 1:41 am
Cuisenaire
Hey everyone!
I would like to say women are just as guilty as men when it comes to downlow. Why are all the entries bashing men as though women are innocent and standing before the throne of God pure as gold. Man in charge you make great points about the downlow life and yes ladies he is true about many of his views. I know because I am a delivered downlow man who felt I needed something extra. Well I found out sex wasn’t the key to my satisfaction. Jesus became the fulfillment of all my desires and I am in love with him now. Feelings and thoughts do come but I have the will not to hurt others and give myself a first-class ticket to hell. Remember people it is all about Jesus!!!
July 28, 2004 at 12:31 am
Man in Charge
Also
“Unfortunately that’s the attitude that we give our young women when they do happen to get pregnant, but i’m here to say that regardless if you have a child that young or not there is STILL HOPE”
Women dont “happen to get pregnant”. They get pregnant because they have unprotected sex at a young age. Getting pregnant as a teenager is the result of a personal choice to have sex, and nothing else. Rape is the exception. Men will try their best to lose their virginity before age 16. I lost mine at 18, and with an older woman who seduced me. My parents MADE me achieve my goal of getting an education first. Being black in America means that you have to try just that much harder.
July 28, 2004 at 12:24 am
Man in Charge
Perhaps I overstepped a bit, “Concerned4u”, and I meant no harm. You were very fortunate, but I would still encourage that young lady to refrain from focusing on relationships and sex right now. Statistics show that it is black and Latina women who get pregnant while in their teenage year, and have a disproportionate single-parent household as compared to whites and Asians. This must change for a number of reasons (related to the DL issue):
A fatherless boy is becomes aware of a world composed of individuals and his own need to form friendships and operate successfully within it. So far his closest relationship has been with his mother, but as he looks at the male world around him he understands that this is not a role model for his friendships with other boys who operate a different set of rules that he doesn’t yet understand. In some societies the removal of a boy from the influence of his mother into the male world is even celebrated by ritual. In the modern Western world this initiation takes place in the playground and it can be a particularly difficult transition for the more sensitive, thoughtful — feminine, if you like — boy. While girls of this age talk and talk, boys’ friendships adhere to a pecking order of dominance, and the boy is worried about where he will fit in. It is a time of great confusion and loneliness.
Looking at the DL man who has been on the DL (or bisexual) since a young age is most probably the product of a family where the father was either not present or was only there part-time. Later, the young man will look for the male bond and affection from other males his own age or older men. They often become completely gay. I am telling you this because you need to know that women are NOT men, and they can never fill the male role. Raising a son without a father is a recipe for the DL. Men can never fill the female role, but a fewer percentage of men grow up to go on the DL or be gay if BOTH parents are there to provide the balance.
The balance can tip at any time in life, and men who were straight can be tempted to try the DL because their woman has decided to be a “strong” woman who nags a lot and wants to run things HER way (like my wife). Likewise, an abusing man who makes his woman feel like she is powerless and insignificant may seek the comfort of another woman who will make her feel special and needed.
I never meant to insult you or judge you for your actions, “Concerned4u”, but I am a pragmatist. I wouldnt encourage Evita to follow your path. You are the exception to the one-parent rule (I hope).
July 27, 2004 at 8:26 am
concerned4u
Well good for you Evita & we don’t want to silence anything you have to say. As far as seeing her as a student Man in Charge, on this issue all the women are students.
Off of the subject of dl for a min.- I was a teenage/single mother & quite frankly i take offense to the statement
” I can guarantee you that if you have your 3.8 GPA now, you will not be able to maintain it if you have children. You can just about forget college.”
Unfortunately that’s the attitude that we give our young women when they do happen to get pregnant, but i’m here to say that regardless if you have a child that young or not there is STILL HOPE. I graduated early from high school & graduated on the Dean’s list from college with a 3.92 GPA, yeah it will take you a little longer but you have to prioritize and know who you are sleeping with but even if one day you have to do it by yourself, you CAN do it.
And some children are just as good of a parent as older people, there are a lot of 28/30 yr. olds running around acting like their still 14 or 15. But the best choice is NOT to become a teen mother just enough being a child PERIOD, but accidents do happen & my son gave me focus/direction in life that i never had & all i do is for him. And considering you have that bond with you mother, anything is possible because you do have someone there for you unlike many young mothers that have children for someone to love them (not including myself)but like in anything you have choices.
So keep on talking Evita!
July 27, 2004 at 5:26 am
Man in Charge
To “Evita”
“Did I ever say I was dealing with men????”
Uh, yes, unless the posts above arent what you meant to write:
“I’m a young black female at an age(15)where I’m discovering and finding out what I like and don’t like when it comes to relationships and men.”
AND
“After I heard what they were talking about I was very shocked. Mainly, shocked to know that the men I know(most of them very handsome and well-educated) could be on the down low.”
That pointed out, I need to tell you that I am not trying to diss you. I accept the fact that girls your age are having sex, but I dont condone it, and I see it as adding to the millions of black people who grow up without fathers or are raised by ill-equipped mothers who are basically children themselves. Because of their early parenthood, they miss the opportunity to get the education and exposure they need to become good parents.
You definitely said that you are “finding out what I like and don’t like when it comes to relationships and men”. AT 15 YEARS OLD? Forget about them right now. Boys at that age are prone to experimentation, exploring, and looking at stashed copies of porn magazines. Those “men” are not men yet. When they have to work for a living and learn to support themselves, they will be able to support a family. At that age, they dont have to worry about being on the DL because they dont even know their sexuality yet. As I have said earlier on this board, men may experiment and lead perfectly straight lives without ever trying DL activities again. Others will go gay. Still others will remain in the middle as bisexuals. Facts, and nothing else.
Back to school:
If you are 15 years old, that would put you somewhere about Middle School age (grade 8 or 9?). That means that you havent reached High School age yet. I can guarantee you that if you have your 3.8 GPA now, you will not be able to maintain it if you have children. You can just about forget college. As I can speak for many men on the DL, perhaps some of the women here can speak to you about what I have said. I would guess that most of them agree with me.
If you want to discuss the issue, I dont have a problem with that, but I will think of you as a student and not a peer. I hope that doesnt disappoint you, but I dont think I can get over the fact that Im old enough to be your father, as well as old enough to have had your brother and sister too (figuratively). Dont take offense please.
July 26, 2004 at 8:49 pm
Evita
TO MAN IN CHARGE:
Did I ever say I was dealing with men????
July 26, 2004 at 8:46 pm
Evita
Well #1: For everybody’s information I’m not having sex, so don’t get it twisted. I wouldn’t talk about anything I wouldn’t talk about with my own mother. And it’s not like I was up alone a 3:45. I happened to wake up and turn on the tv and it was on Opera. Yes, my mama was up watching it with me, too.
#2: I am very into school with a cummulative GPA of 3.8 and is ranked #2 of my class. In my community I see that single mother with 3 or more kids everyday. Fortunately, I choose not to go down that road.
#3: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me thinking about things that are affecting the black community. It’s not like this is the only thing that’s on my mind. But like you said, other kids my age and around my age are having sex. So, hiding issues like this would only be hurting them. I didn’t think it was gon’ be this much of a problem with me posting my opinion on this board, and even if it is I’m not gon’ stop writing how I feel.
NO OFFENSE TAKEN…………. NONE GIVEN
July 26, 2004 at 2:32 pm
concered4u
I do have to agree Evita, you are quite young to be thinking about such things, but reality is that children are having sex a lot younger these days. So although we hope you aren’t at least if you are you’re thinking on such issues and are consciene to protecting yourself.
Man in Charge, you’ve married your 1 so stop getting fresh with Woman in charge of self!! I have a question for you man in charge- have you ever had a discussion about this topic with your wife? There’s been a lot of talk shows about it, books, and i’ve even seen an episode of law & order that considered this matter, so just as a casual conversation to see what her thoughts might be on the subject.
July 25, 2004 at 11:49 pm
Man in Charge
Hey, “Woman in Cgarhe of Self” – I think I could really get next to you! Your writing and your attitude is EXACTLY what I need in my life. Hey, Im good looking, well-educated (my spelling errors come from typing too fast [+/-80wpm], not from a lack of the right way to spell things!). I could give up the DL for somebody like you! I only started this a few years ago, and if I had to divvy up my activities I would have to day I have been 80% with women and 20% with men.
Oh well, the women who think like you are hard to find, and most of you are already married to what they want. Are you a psychologist?
July 25, 2004 at 10:46 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Ditto on the advice and encouragement to Evita. I just KNEW you were going to say something about her (15 y.o.) being up after 3 in the morning watching Oprah 🙂
Also…
“Come out of denial and realize the facts: MEN ARE DIFFERENT FROM WOMEN. They do NOT attach emotions with sexual acts. That is why we can have sex with prostitutes, other men, and in some other cultures, with ANIMALS! You might find this hard or impossible to understand, but its reality.”
Thank you and pass the peas!!! I have mentioned these facts to many females before, but they just seem to get that dazed look because no one wants to hear this. They think those “Iowa” farm boy stories are just that…stories.
People…Wake UUUUUUUUPPPPPPPP!!!!!!
July 25, 2004 at 8:50 pm
Man in Charge
To “Evita”
“I’m a young black female at an age(15)where I’m discovering and finding out what I like and don’t like when it comes to relationships and men. Hopefully everybody will take time out to read what I wrote and correct me if I’m wrong.
When I first heard about the DL I was watching Opera at about 3:35 am. After I heard what they were talking about I was very shocked. Mainly, shocked to know that the men I know(most of them very handsome and well-educated) could be on the down low.”
RESPONSE:
I hate to make an issue of this, but you are simply too young to understand this issue. If you are referring to “men” who are your age or even 4 or 5 years older (which would put them in to range of 19 or 20 years old), then you artent dealing with men yet. You are dealing with BOYS. You cant be “well-educated” at that age, since college-age is roughly 18 to 22, and even then a person is merely attending college, and has not yet graduated and therefore does not yet have the corresponding life experiences which go along with school education. Furthermore, I find it appalling that you are concerned with sexual matters such as the DL at your age. You shouldnt be having sex at 15 or 16 or even 17. I am not trying to be condescending, but my daughter will NOT be allowed to have relationships with boys until she is of age. It is my hope that she is concerned with things like her education, her future, and her OWN ethics at 15 years old.
If you go along the line of reasoning that you seem to have taken, and your concerns at 15 are wether your “man” is on the DL or not, you may be destined to repeat the all too familiar black dearth of becoming a single black teenage mother with children, and forever crippled in the socioeconomic world. Your children will be born to a parent who has not yet learned enough to raise her children. I will pray for you and hope that you take my statements to heart.
THEN YOU SAID THIS:
“”If you like to do it to men then thats what you like. Don’t keep having all these excuses of why you turned that why and how it was because of a woman. If you’re curious about it then you’re curious about it. Just stop lying to yourselves and trying to deny the fact that because you only like to have SEX with men that you aren’t attracted to them. There’s gotta be more than sexual attraction for you to even feel this way about other men.”
RESPONSE:
WRONG. All there has to be is secual attraction, or perhaps just the lack of opportunity to have a female. This does not apply to gay men, because gay men dont really have a sexual attraction to women, even though they MIGHT have sex with them (most dont). Come out of denial and realize the facts: MEN ARE DIFFERENT FROM WOMEN. They do NOT attach emotions with sexual acts. That is why we can have sex with prostitutes, other men, and in some other cultures, with ANIMALS! You might find this hard or impossible to understand, but its reality. Until you understand the dynamics of male sexuality, you will NEVER understand the DL.
If a man goes without sex for any length of time, his body will arouse itself, and bring itself to orgasm (complete with ejaculation) in his sleep. Men have a PHYSICAL NEED for sexual release at regular intervals, unlike women. There does not have to be any emotional involvement, or any other reason for sex other than the need for sexual release. Dont try to speak authoritatively about this with me, because I am a man and you are not. I can speak about this better than any woman on this board.
Open your mind to the information, and try to comprehend the FACTS. Denying them teaches you nothing. As I said earlier in this post, I think you should be concerning yourself with school, and making it though your teenage years and early adulthood without sex and children. If you dont, you will simply add more single-parent raised black children to the already thick part of the black bell curve.
July 25, 2004 at 7:28 pm
Evita
Well alot of women have that mentality that their man will never do that. Thats one of the reasons why they never find out or want to realize. In the Essence it was saying that a DL man knows another DL man when he see’s one. They do the “one second too long” stare, or it’s just a simple “hi” or handshake. If you think about it, it could be kinda tricky to notice because anybody can say hi to somebody. Plus, DL men look for other masculine men so that can make it kinda hard to tell, too. I know that if I see 3 of the men I know talking or walking together I would never suspect them to be on the down low’.
July 25, 2004 at 5:10 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Re: the Essence article…
Whenever women say that they would have never suspected a particular male to be on the DL, I always ask what criteria they were using. A male to be “swishy” or extremely feminine seems to be the indicators for many women. The question, however, is not whether the male has a feminine “gender orientation” but whether the male is secretly having sex with, desiring (not just a passing fantasy) to have sex with, or sexually (and emotionally) attracted to males. Cher once said “it’s in his kiss”…I, along with others, are saying…it’s in their EYES…something in their eyes (their choices, their priorities, their activities, their sensualities, and sexuality) will tell you that they are looking for a MAN to adore…you simply have to use YOUR EYES and stop pretending to be blind (and blinded by all of the “trappings” of “good” “strong” “masculine” “confident” “upwardly mobile” Black man). A DL male is often all of the wonderful things women believe they want… in a nice pretty package…the only thing that is missing is a big red bow. He is often the “perfect” man, which is why sooooooooo many women refuse to let him go even when they know that they know that they know what they know. Fear is what keeps a male on the DL and fear and fantasy is what keeps many women right there with him.
OK, I am going to say it. Many females KNOW good and darn well that they suspect that their Mr. Perfect is on the DL. They insist that they will not tolerate a man on the DL and will shout in church about the abomination of the DL and talk all of that Adam and Eve and Adam and Steve talk while knowing full well that they have long suspected that “something” is just not quite right with their own situation. It does not matter if your man’s reason for being on the DL is because he is gay or because he is bisexual. If you insist that you want a man who is neither, quit playing games with your self and with these men…just relax and let it go.
Many people are trying to make themselves feel better by saying not all Black men are on the DL. It is rare (I did not say “never”) that I encounter (across the U.S.) an unmarried, kind hearted, educated, hard working, sensitive, romantic, church going, Black male that is not exuding a DL vibe.
One significant problem is the societal presumption of heterosexuality. We assume that 99% of all people are heterosexual and a small 1% is “something else.” If everyone were honest, I bet we would find, in terms of behavior (not just orientation), that 1/3 of Black males are straight, 1/3 are bisexual, and 1/3 are gay. As people start to “be who they are” we might see manifest what I am hypothesizing.
WAKE UP!
—Peace
July 25, 2004 at 3:05 pm
Evita
I read the latest article in Essence and the one they did with E.Lynn Harris. Even the lady who interviewed the men said that she wouldn’t have ever suspected those men to be on the DL.
July 25, 2004 at 1:20 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Hi Evita,
thank you for your post. I am glad to see that young people are discussing this issue. I hope that you are also able to share openly with those your age about your thoughts. I think that at your age the dynamics of the DL are unique…as the hip hop culture (which is prominent) is very homoerotic/homocurious, female hating, and very DL oriented. It is often hard to tease all of those issues out to deal with each individually. My hope is that regardless of what young males are doing that as YOU grow into womanhood, you will always do what is respectful of you and care for YOU…most of all.
My mother always said, “Don’t ever love or respect anybody any more than they respect you!”
Always be a person in charge of self…
July 25, 2004 at 1:04 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Man in Charge,
It is sometimes hard to create a fine line between the “good” and the “bad.” Depending on the circumstances, the good points sometimes have a way of becoming the problem areas and vice versa. Over the years, the best part has been the companionship based on our shared interests, values, and perspectives on the world. We enjoy similar types of social and intellectual activities. We also pretty much have the same spiritual beliefs. The one thing that presents a communication (or reality) check challenge from time to time is the cultural and ethnic difference. Many times, however, this is also a positive aspect.
On that note, I think that many Black females would be wise to not limit themselves when it comes to being in “healthy” relationships.
BTW,
the new Essence magazine has an interesting DL article. Anyone care to discuss?
July 25, 2004 at 12:54 pm
Evita
I’m a young black female at an age(15)where I’m discovering and finding out what I like and don’t like when it comes to relationships and men. Hopefully everybody will take time out to read what I wrote and correct me if I’m wrong.
When I first heard about the DL I was watching Opera at about 3:35 am. After I heard what they were talking about I was very shocked. Mainly, shocked to know that the men I know(most of them very handsome and well-educated) could be on the down low.
I’ve also read J.L. King’s book and I respect him for bringing the issue forward. Although DL men will do what they desire, they shouldn’t have all these excuses for it. If you like to do it to men then thats what you like. Don’t keep having all these excuses of why you turned that why and how it was because of a woman. If you’re curious about it then you’re curious about it. Just stop lying to yourselves and trying to deny the fact that because you only like to have SEX with men that you aren’t attracted to them. There’s gotta be more than sexual attraction for you to even feel this way about other men.
Even though this is happening and has been happening for years I still can say that I love black men more than any other race and always will. Man in Charge I do feel what you’re saying about SOME women using sex and children as a way to trap a man. But just like all black men aren’t on the DL, all black women aren’t materialistic “man-trappers”.
You are also right about SOME women wanted to turn their men into something there not. When you first sense that happening just get out of the relationship so you won’t have to complain about her trying to change you. I’m not trying to come down on you or make you feel bad, but just like you we all have our own opinions.
I personally don’t believe too much in bi-sexuality. Either you like men or women. In, J.L. King’s book alot of the men said that they enjoyed being with men more than women. So, for them to say that and still consider themselves as “straight” is truly ridiculous.
I do believe that all black men aren’t on the DL. But, us as black women really don’t have much to choose from. We got the brothas that are locked up, brothas that only date white or “other” women, homosexuals, and now the DL brothas. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against these brothas I just mentioned. They are still my black kings.
I am also very aware of this HIV/AIDS issue. It’s a shame that us blacks, especially black women, have to suffer with most the consequences when this HIV thing started it out as a gay white male thing. All I can say is that everybody has to start protecting themselves and stop thinking that it can’t happen to you. AIDS don’t have the names of the people they want to get. When it all boils down it’s up to you to do what you gotta do to protect yourself. Thank you for reading MY Reality Check and God Bless.
July 24, 2004 at 4:38 pm
Man in Charge
I forgot to say that men AUTOMATICALLY change when they have children and so do women. If the man wants children and asks for them and has a chance to plan for them, then when they arrive, a new father will emerge. The process of raising children and showing patience and nurturing will soften a man, and bring out many of the sensitivities and other traits that women desire.
DO NOT TRY TO TRAP A MAN BY HAVING UNWANTED CHILDREN.
The only way a man can change is by changing himself. You cant change him and you shouldnt even try. At best, perhaps suggest changes or voice your objections to certain behavior, but if you think he is clay in your hands to be molded, then you are mistaken.
July 24, 2004 at 4:32 am
Man in Charge
Good questions, and I am not sure you will understand:
“You often mention the need for variety. OK, a different question…What attracts you to males? For instance, to what physical and psychological attributes are you drawn?”
**********
Well, Im not drawn to other men sexually per se. I have the same bonding reaction with other men as any guy. I am attracted to men who are even tempered, easy to get along with, funny, intelligent and good looking and great with the ladies. Its more of an admiration than an attraction. Its pretty much the normal stuff that brings men together. I dont look at a guy and think “I sure would like to have sex with that guy”. Men know a good looking dude when they see one, and they may admire his looks without thinking “he’s cute!”. Its a normal guy thing.
“From another vantage point, what do males possess that females do not that renders them attractive to other males…and to you? On the flip side, what is it about you that attracts other males to you? ”
**********
Men do not take themselves too seriously. Men are playful and fun loving. They are always looking for adventure and spontenaiety. Females tend to be clingy and emotional. They often project their idea of what a man should be on their potential mates. They try to turn a hunter into a gatherer. More on that later in this post. I think that other men might be attracted to me because Im a nice guy, I have a good sense of humor, I listen and I am open minded and considerate. I dont believe in the ultra-macho persona because I feel that people who are like that are compensating for something else. HINT: Bodybuilders usually have small penises and are very insecure. Atheletes are usually arrogant and rarely faithful to their girlfriends or their wives. Gay bashers are usually either gay themselves or on the DL. There are other examples.
Back to the women who project their idea of what a man should be onto their potential mates: Women who go into a relationship with a man that they met in a club or other established meeting place like that (bar, party, etc) dont seem to realize that they were PREY at the time when they met. Venues like that are hunting grounds, and you are the hunted. The man wants to get laid, ultimately by going to such places. If he gets lucky by going home with you, do you thiunk that it means that he is going to want it EVERY NIGHT for the rest of his life while you pick out names for your future children? Think again.
Unecpected meetings have a better chance at success (for long term relationships). Neutral grounds like markets, libraries, an accidental bump while walking, perhaps an introduction by a friend are GREAT potential relationships.
The WORST thing a woman can do to her man is to try to change him into something else. What usually happens is that she realizes that she cant change her man so she begins to resent him. She may start to argue with him or reject him in bed, or perhaps even start seeing other men. Same thing for a man. Marriage seems to ruin the spontenaiety, and it also stifles the natural male “hunting urge”. The woman feels secure and like she somehow has “anchored” her man. WRONG.
My turn
Are you currently in a relationship? If not, why? If so, what in the relationship are its good points and which are the bad points?
July 23, 2004 at 9:51 am
Woman in Charge of Self
Man In Charge,
You often mention the need for variety. OK, a different question…What attracts you to males? For instance, to what physical and psychological attributes are you drawn? From another vantage point, what do males possess that females do not that renders them attractive to other males…and to you? On the flip side, what is it about you that attracts other males to you?
July 21, 2004 at 4:16 pm
Man in Charge
TO: “Concerned4u”
Hypothetical question-
Man in Charge if you did leave your wife, would you tell the new woman/women in your life that you are bisexual?
ANSWER: Probably, at first. If I lost too many of them to my honesty, then I would no longer do it. I would have to be VERY careful who I told it to, because women have this “grapevine” which extends deep into my hunting grounds!
And
Have you given up on the idea of coming out about your bisexuality to your wife?
ANSWER: Yes. She would take everything I own, and she has said so. If I get a divorce based on irreconcilable differences, it is no-fault and the assets get divided evenly. Divorce based on infidelity opens the door for the “Big Grab”, which could include full custody of my children. Aint gonna happen.
P.S.
Congrats on your progress/attempt to stay faithful, but is that what you truly want?
ANSWER: Yes, for now. I cant deal with the guilt. She is making an effort to be at home more. Her girlfriends come over, and they have a good time, and my buddies come over as well. The one buddy I get it on with doesnt try to create any situations for me, and its not like we are “in love” with each other. Purely a physical thing when we want to, and right now, I dont want to. We had great sex while in Jamaica (even on the beach!). Im happy, and she seems to be for now. But Christmas isnt too far away, and the Zales catalogs are getting left in all the “hint” places around ther house, turned to pages with things circled on them. Sigh.
July 21, 2004 at 4:03 pm
Man in Charge
I had to think about your questions for a bit before responding, “Woman in Charge of Self”. Here goes:
************
“Now, I have a few questions for you. Why are you on the DL? I’m not asking why you are bisexual, but instead, what is the benefit of being closeted around your sexuality with those outside of the “club”? Aside from your wife, what would happen if you came out? How would your family, friends, and coworkers respond? Would you have to go to extra lengths to prove your masculinity? Is hyper sexuality a way to prove masculinity in society?”
************
That one is easy. Because very few are able to distinguish between being bisexual and being gay, “coming out” as a bisexual is really nothing but insuring that you will be labeled as gay. The straight women which were available when “closeted”, are no longer available. The straight guys will label you as gay, even though you are just as masculine and hot for females as they are. There is too much “gay baggage” attached to coming out openly as a bisexual. I would venture to say that bisexuals are the LARGEST male group in the population (exceeding “straights”). The nature of the behavior mandates secrecy in the midst of the gay movements. The gays want to include the bisexuals in their quest, but we dont really belong there. There is always reference to the “LGBT Community”. It doesnt actually exist. LGBT stands for Lesbian/Gay/Bi/Transgender, and to lump those people into a group as a “community” is ridiculous. I dont want to be a part of any such group. As far as proving my masculinity, I dont think about it. I know Im a man, I think like a man, and I dont do any “hyper masculine” posturing. Only insecure men have to prove something, and usually only to themselves.
************
“Now, for the big question (that I am sure will be of interest to the females on this board) to what kind of women are many DL men attracted? Yes, I am asking for stereotypes…not just physical stereotypes, but psychological and emotional one. You know where I’m going with this. It takes a special woman to “not know” for 25 years that “her” man is “vibing” with other men. If in marriage, two really become one, and neither is overly self involved, a woman who is “at one” with a man on the DL (and paying the slightest bit of attention) should eventually (at least after about the 24th anniversary) be singing (about “her” man) the old Bell Biv Devoe song lyrics that go…”Something in your eyes told me that you were looking for a MAN you could adore. Something in your eyes gave me the sign and I “KNEW” it was on, I “KNEW” it was on. Anything is possible, anything can be. It’s clear to see it’s like animal attraction. When you add it up it’s just a matter of factions. Something in your eyes told me that you were looking for a man you could adore. It’s CLEAR TO SEE it’s like adding and subtracting. When you add it up it’s just ANIMAL ATTRACTION.”
************
THAT was the one I had to think about! To answer the first part, it takes the ability to understand the stages of attraction that a man goes through first. I can only speak for myself, but as an educated and refined man, I find the following to be true: The obvious first step is physical appearance. A fine sista will grab the eye immediately. HOWEVER, if she is one of those overly done, 2″ acrylic nail wearing, too much makeup, too much jewelry and ebonics speaking women…FORGET IT. I dont care how fine she is. If you show too much, you will be classified as “high-maintenance or “trouble” babes. Only men who are similar will be attracted.
The second step is the intelligence factor. Prison types and “bad boys” are not to sharp in the intelligence department. They are usually intimidated by intelligent women, and will not go any further. They are also less likely to have any measure of control over their sex drives. THEY are the most likely to be on the DL, because they live by the “Pleasure Principle”. Women get hooked because they are supposedly great in bed. Oh well, you will get played in the end. Such a man has NO reason to become monogamous or faithful. If it feels good, he will do it.
With those types out of the way, all that is left are those like myself who are the stereotypical “Average Joe”, good-looking, masculine and educated breadwinner types who like to watch ball games and work on their cars, and flip through the Playboy Magazines while their wives shop. Having said that, there is little or no difference between what type of woman a DL man likes and a straight man likes. The straight man can go on the DL later in life (like I did). I bet that the average man cant tell you what he was thinking about the last time he masturbated. I also doubt that his woman knows when he last did so. Even after 25, 40 or 60 years.
July 21, 2004 at 12:17 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Hey MIC (that reminds me of HNIC) 😉
“More interesting reading, but I still don’t see me in there.”
Are you certain that you don’t see any aspect of yourself in there? For instance, are you on the DL with your physician? If so, why? Most can understand the fear related to telling someone in one’s social or familial circle about being bisexual, however, it is more challenging to understand the reason one might chose to conceal such pertinent information from a health service provider who presumably (at least pre 9/11) maintains information in confidence.
“am not at all effeminate.”
What do you think about the excerpt pertaining to the need non heterosexual men have to be hypermasculine in order to prove their manhood in the face of a society that views male same sex orientation or sexual behavior with femininity? Is this issue one of the reasons Black DL males reject the bisexual and gay labels?
“Im more interested in the bisexual behavior itself, and not the POSSIBLE repurcussions of such behavior.”
“Im a man, and I like to be in charge, and I am most of the time (or so I think!). Im also highly sexed and I dont like it when I cant have it when I want it. Why should I suffer? …I dont deserve to go without. still keep my DL shit for a rainy day. I like the variety.”
Did you think about any of my questions related to the sexual renaissance of Black males? OK, I know that no one wants to touch this, but I often “hear” Black males on the DL express a number of thoughts about control and power struggles with Black females. There is almost a need to reject femininity and the perceived sexual power that goes with it. The homoeroticism of Black hip hop and Black gang culture in the midst of the Black matri-focal subculture in the US tends to lead me to want to explore the issue of sexual power and bargaining and sexual rejection (and thus disempowerment) among Black DL males and females. I hear it in your posts and have heard it countless time in other spaces with other people. There is some element of F-U embedded in many aspects of intimate and social relatedness between Black males and females. Black males on the DL are “in the secret society or club” and with that almost comes a mocking of females who can’t quite penetrate it and are at an impasse trying to figure it out. That in and of itself is empowering to a group of males who feel otherwise disenfranchised and power-challenged. I need to think on this some more, but…
“I think that most women here are more interested in the “whys” of the behavior.”
Yep, many women are interested in the whys of the behavior—perhaps in part to attempt to control such or to alter self in service of controlling such. Many women are also correct to not only be concerned about the “why” of homosexuality, bisexuality, and the DL, but the POSSIBLE repercussions of the behavior for themselves. In addition to heart break, Black women are at higher than average risk for dealing with the POSSIBLE physical and social repercussion of DL behavior of Black males. I provided some of the information for the females who have those concerns because I believe that most are only concerned with the DL to the extent that they believe it impacts them. You know that I don’t believe in altruism.
“They have wives and they understand the risk of going outside the “club” as well as I do.”
As you have stated previously, men who are on the DL crave variety, so just as people lie to their spouses about going outside of the marriage, “brothas” lie to one another about venturing outside of the “good ole boys network.” Come on, you know they do.
Now, I have a few questions for you. Why are you on the DL? I’m not asking why you are bisexual, but instead, what is the benefit of being closeted around your sexuality with those outside of the “club”? Aside from your wife, what would happen if you came out? How would your family, friends, and coworkers respond? Would you have to go to extra lengths to prove your masculinity? Is hyper sexuality a way to prove masculinity in society?
Now, for the big question (that I am sure will be of interest to the females on this board) to what kind of women are many DL men attracted? Yes, I am asking for stereotypes…not just physical stereotypes, but psychological and emotional one. You know where I’m going with this. It takes a special woman to “not know” for 25 years that “her” man is “vibing” with other men. If in marriage, two really become one, and neither is overly self involved, a woman who is “at one” with a man on the DL (and paying the slightest bit of attention) should eventually (at least after about the 24th anniversary) be singing (about “her” man) the old Bell Biv Devoe song lyrics that go…”Something in your eyes told me that you were looking for a MAN you could adore. Something in your eyes gave me the sign and I “KNEW” it was on, I “KNEW” it was on. Anything is possible, anything can be. It’s clear to see it’s like animal attraction. When you add it up it’s just a matter of factions. Something in your eyes told me that you were looking for a man you could adore. It’s CLEAR TO SEE it’s like adding and subtracting. When you add it up it’s just ANIMAL ATTRACTION.”
July 21, 2004 at 8:32 am
concerned4u
Hypothetical question-
Man in Charge if you did leave your wife, would you tell the new woman/women in your life that you are bisexual?
And
Have you given up on the idea of coming out about your bisexuality to your wife?
P.S.
Congrats on your progress/attempt to stay faithful, but is that what you truly want?
July 21, 2004 at 12:09 am
Man in Charge
More interesting reading, but I still dont see me in there. Im HIV-, dont have a lot of male partners, and am not at all effeminate. The information you give above all seems to center around HIV and AIDS, and how being “closeted” helps contribute to its spread. Im sure that is helpful for those interested in that subject. Im more interested in the bisexual behavior itself, and not the POSSIBLE repurcussions of such behavior.
I think that most women here are more interested in the “whys” of the behavior. I can tell you a lot about that, and absolutely nothing about HIV or AIDS, since I am not infected and I practice safe sex with my guy friends. They have wives and they understand the risk of going outside the “club” as well as I do.
Gay men steer clear of bisexual men for the same reason as straight women do. The fear of having to “share” their lover with someone else simply frightens them to death. I love my wife very much, and I feel jealosy when other men try to hit on her or give her too much attention. I am good to her, and I take care of her. However, I think if the right man came along (with more zeros in his bank account), she might be tempted. She is materialistic and bossy. Im a man, and I like to be in charge, and I am most of the time (or so I think!). Im also highly sexed and I dont like it when I cant have it when I want it. Why should I suffer? I am a together brotha with a lot going for him, and I dont deserve to go without. She gets it whenever she wants it, and she spend a lot of our income on herself. If I leave her, I wont be going to another man, I will go for another woman, and still keep my DL shit for a rainy day. I like the variety. Right now, Im not doing any DL stuff, and I havent since we got back from Jamaica. So far, so good.
July 20, 2004 at 8:49 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Another informative piece of information…
Public health officials’ attempt to reach black gay men
By Kai Wright
Darnell Anderson, 45, has relationships with men but has rejected the “gay label”
DURBAN–Darnell Anderson and his wife meet every Sunday. They haven’t lived together for 10 years, but they’re still close friends.
Before they got married, Anderson, 45, had considered himself gay. From the time he was 18 years old, he lived what he describes as a “very gay sort of San Francisco, early ’80s lifestyle.” But then he fell in love with his female friend and got married. They stayed together for three years, and then decided to separate, but not divorce. Since then, he has rejected what he describes as the “gay label.”
“It really depends on the context I’m in,” Anderson explains. “If I’m at work, with mainly white gay men, I’m gay. But myself, I don’t consider myself to be ‘gay.’ I sleep with whoever I sleep with.”
Anderson’s perspective is not unusual. Many black men who have romantic and sexual relationships with other men do not embrace a gay identity. Some feel that identity is too closely associated with white men, and prefer terms such as “same-gender-loving” or “in the life” to describe themselves. Others believe that because they only engage in certain sex acts and gender roles with other men – those typically associated with the male in heterosexual relationships – they are not actually homosexual. Still, others are merely closeted, hiding their homosexuality because of fear of stigma and discrimination in the community.
Black and Latino men account for a combined 51 percent of AIDS cases among “men who have sex with men” – the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s term for gay and bisexual men. Black men account for 33 percent of the cases in that category, and 40 percent of new reports of HIV – the virus that causes AIDS – among men who have sex with men. And a 1999 CDC study of men having sex with men between the ages of 15 and 22 in seven cities found that black gay youth are almost five times as likely as their white counterparts to be HIV positive.
Homophobia, many argue, contributes to the increased infection rates among black gay men by undermining their self-esteem and driving them into hiding – both making it more difficult to reach them with prevention messages and more difficult to convince them to care about risking infection.
July 20, 2004 at 8:40 pm
Woman In Charge of Self
More interesting insights…
Gays In Sport
By Coach Eric Gumby Anderson MA, MA, Ph.D. (cand.)
We know that at the very least 5-10% of the population is gay, which means that there should have been up to 1,500 professional gay athletes in the NBA, NFL, MLB, and MLH since 1980.
What’s keeping all these gay jocks from coming out of the closet?
“Boys learn early that to be gay, to be suspected of being gay, or even to be unable to prove one’s heterosexual status, is not acceptable.”
Given that gay men grow up in the same society that straight men do, a society that considers gay men [or effeminate men] to be somehow less of a man, gay men are often desperate to prove their masculinity, and usually to hide their sexuality. Even the gay community values masculinity over effeminacy, as witnessed by the fact that “straight-acting” gays are somehow considered a step higher on the status ladder than “effeminate acting” ones.
Most gay men, and virtually all closeted gay men, feel the need to prove their masculinity, and sports are a great avenue to do this. Sports can help gay men prove to themselves that they are every bit as good as straight men. In fact, David Kopay wrote in his book The David Kopay Story, “I was out to prove that I was in no way less a man because I was homosexual.”
July 20, 2004 at 8:33 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Interesting…
“THURSDAY, Dec. 26 (HealthDayNews) — Assumptions can spell trouble in the doctor’s office, and a new poll suggests gays and lesbians may be especially vulnerable: Nearly half of those surveyed said they haven’t revealed their sexual orientation to their physicians.
When there’s an unwritten policy of “don’t ask, don’t tell,” these patients might miss out on medical information and tests geared to their special health risks, experts say.
Perhaps the following is an implication of the above?
“HIV Rate High Among Closeted Black Gays
CDC: Infection rate higher than all other races combined
By Amanda Gardner
HealthDayNews Reporter
THURSDAY, Feb. 6 — Fourteen percent of young black men who have sex with other men but don’t openly disclose their sexual orientation are infected with the AIDS virus, a new survey finds.
That is almost triple the rate of HIV infection among so-called “non-disclosing” men of all other races and ethnicities combined, according to the survey, which was done by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
The report, appearing in the Feb. 7 issue of the CDC publication Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, comes on the eve of the third annual National Black HIV/AIDS Awareness Day, which spotlights the enormous impact that AIDS has had on the black community.
Blacks make up only 12 percent of the United States population, yet they account for more than half of the new HIV diagnoses each year, according to the government.
The new revelations involving the community of men who are not “out” about their sexual preferences have grave implications for prevention of the disease and its future spread, experts say.
“We’ve been hearing about this population that’s more prevalent in communities of color, especially in African-American and Latino communities. They practice same-sex behavior but they don’t attach an identity to that behavior,” says Mark Jason McLaurin, associate director for prevention policy at the Gay Men’s Health Crisis in New York City.
“The good news is that the prevalence is lower among the ‘non-disclosers’ as opposed to the gay community. But the reverse of that is that, without the proper investment in research, we think this group represents a growth opportunity for HIV infection,” McLaurin says.
The study also found that, regardless of ethnicity, HIV rates among men who were openly gay were higher than among men who were closeted. Yet the closeted individuals exhibited other disturbing characteristics.
“The closeted men accessed testing services less frequently,” says Duncan MacKellar, an epidemiologist in the CDC’s Division of HIV/AIDS Prevention. “The average closeted MSM [men who have sex with men] had tested only once in their lifetime; 50 percent had never tested or had tested over a year ago.”
Group members were also more likely not to know that they were infected and to have had recent sex with a female, a phenomenon that may play an important role in HIV transmission to women, MacKellar says.
The CDC study, part of the Young Men’s Survey, looked at 5,589 men aged 15 to 29 in six U.S. cities who had sex with other men. The researchers used a scale of one to seven, seven being “out to everyone” and one being “not out to anyone,” to determine if someone was a “discloser” or “non-discloser.”
More black MSM (18 percent) fell in the “non-discloser” category than white MSM (8 percent). And black “non-disclosers” were less likely to be HIV infected (14 percent) than African-American “disclosers” (24 percent).
However, the 14 percent figure is far higher among blacks than among other racial groups. Hispanic men who were in the closet had a 6 percent rate of HIV infection, while the rate among white “non-disclosers” was 3 percent. The rate among all other races, excluding blacks, was 5 percent.
Among the overall study sample, 98 percent of HIV-infected “non-disclosers” did not know they were infected, compared with 75 percent of “disclosers.” Eight percent of all “non-disclosers” were infected with HIV, compared with 11 percent of “disclosers.”
Why is this happening?
Largely because black gay men have not felt welcome in either the gay community or the black community, says Stephen Thomas, director of the Center for Minority Health at the University of Pittsburgh. “African-Americans have faced a dilemma: to face the racism within the [lesbian and gay] community or the homophobia within the African-American community.”
The result is a “don’t ask-don’t tell,” “open closet” phenomenon, Thomas says. “Before AIDS, that was one thing,” he says. “In the post-AIDS world, that posed a major problem for the spread of the virus and denial.” (Black men who don’t disclose are also referred to as living “on the down low.”)
Because the disease of AIDS was once so strongly associated with the gay community, many African-American men felt that attending an HIV workshop or lecture or even picking up a brochure “meant that you were indicting yourself,” Thomas says.
The problem is how to reach a group that is, by definition, hard to reach.
It can be done, Thomas says, by using “culturally appropriate” messages and messengers. HIV/AIDS education and outreach need to take place within a larger context of health disparities, including diabetes, cancer and cardiovascular disease.
But this may take a while to catch on.
“Part of the reason we have not been successful in reaching this population is an absolute dearth of research as to what interventions work with these populations,” McLaurin says. “The truth of this matter is we don’t have any concrete, science-based interventions for this population. And not only are they hard to reach but this data illustrates the imperative attached to reaching them. This is the group that’s going to not only get infected themselves but are going to drive infection into larger populations and large communities, and that should be a concern for everyone.”
Any thoughts?
July 20, 2004 at 8:22 pm
Man in Charge
Interesting. But I resent the constant confusion women (and men) make between being BISEXUAL and being GAY. They are NOT the same. A man who has his first homosexual experience has already passed the psychological gauntlet which would allow such an experience to take place. After having experienced it, he may still prefer his heterosexual lifestyle, and still have a genuine need for female sexual contact (like me). I dont want to be gay, and I could never be happy being gay. That said, I have enjoyed my DL experiences, and have no problem accepting the fact that I like sex with men as well as with women. I will NEVER be gay.
Why do women think that such experiences mean that the man is actually gay, but “playing” straight? WRONG. Its a new area for men, and a mystery to women. First, the concept of “infidelity”, then the concept of bisexuality? NO WONDER so many women are confused about the issue. They havent gotten past the one man/many partners reality of the male sexual psyche. Attempting to force the unnatural situation of monogamy is one thing and outright denial of the reality of men is still another. This issue is MOST complex. Perhaps beyond the ability of most women to deal with.
July 20, 2004 at 6:25 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
It’s interesting…the issue of the “naturalness” of “marriage.” Not only are “monogamy” and “marriage” “unnatural” occurrences for humans (of BOTH sexes), so is the “family” system. All are based upon social and legal constructions to some degree…and if one is of the Islamic, Judeo, or Christian faith, the relationships are considered divinely structured.
If we agree on the issue of social construction, we are still left with the ethical and legal dynamics attendant human relatedness. Rules or laws are created because we expect ourselves to behave contrary to such. In other words, we know that it is not “natural” for us to do the “right” thing most of the time—so we legislate it for ourselves for the sake of peace (and a little bit of minding someone else’s business). We know that we are liars, so we create laws to deal with the inevitable fraud, deceit, and trickery in all spheres of human functioning. We know that we will cheat in relationships, so we create laws to punish ourselves when we do so. We know that we will attempt to have sex out of wedlock, so we create laws to deal with that inevitability.
We create laws because we know that our natural inclination is to be, well, uh, crazy. We know that we will hurt each other, deceive each other, hurt ourselves, deceive ourselves and go to great lengths to protect the “self” in exchange for the harm of the “self” of another. We will seek gratification of the self to the exclusion of gratification of the other.
That said, I do not think that it is up to me to determine how people choose to define their relationships with others. It is not my job to define what constitutes a marriage for someone to whom I am not married. From a legal standpoint, however, marriage is a legally binding contract based upon informed consent and mutual exchange with remedies for breaching such. That concept is, in fact, the part of marriage that has always disturbed my soul. At any rate…when individuals decide to enter into this legally binding contract where they exchange mutual benefits, based upon informed consent, the breach of that contract (or fraud as to informed consent) should net the same remedies as breach of any other contract.
Notwithstanding the fact that marriage and monogamy are unnatural for some individuals embarking upon such, both (neither being altruistic) are getting something in exchange for the reduced freedom, reduced choice, and increased monotony.
It has been my perception that when females who have been involved (or married to) with males on the DL understand that the person is on the DL, they experience the relationship as not having been a quid pro quo one where there was a true mutuality of a bargained for exchange (the dealer was palming the big joker). If we dispense with the mushy gushy “women are so clingy” and “men just wanna have fun” thinking, we are left with a business deal and attendant legal issues. What was the bargained for exchange? What were the terms of the contract? Were the terms fulfilled? Was there a contractual breach? Was there a justifiable reliance on the perpetration of fraud? What is the const/benefit of the actual contractual relation? Is contract fulfillment impossible? Is contract fulfillment impracticable? Has there been a destruction of the contractual subject matter? Was the breach malicious or grossly reckless? What are the damages? Who needs to pay up?
In other words—you know how much I’m into song analogies—What’s Love Got to do With It? Sounds unromantic and not very mushy gushy feminine, but that’s my “unnatural” response to what many describe as an unnatural social contract.
On another note, it would be really great if males and females could learn to control themselves instead of spending so much time trying to figure out how to direct someone else’s destiny. Running me is a full time job, leaving no time to orchestrate the existence of another. This also applies to attempts to over-control children and those over whom we have given ourselves other types of power. There’s a real nice Bible verse about tending to self first. I would cite it, but I have never been good with remembering book, chapter, and verse.
On yet another note, I have a question. It seems that there is some sort of sexual renaissance going on with Black males. I’m not speaking about the evolutionary issues discussed, I am talking about some sort of sociopolitical awakening embedded in sexual orientation, sexual functioning (and possibly rebelliously acting out), and gender orientation. Anyone care to comment? If someone could share on this issue related to J.L.’s book, any of E. Lynn’s writings or even Dr. Frances Cress’ thoughts, it would be very interesting.
By the way, for those females who are interested in film about males on the DL, in addition to newer films, there is an old popular film about a white gay male on the DL called “Making Love.” I saw it in Chicago a little over 20 years ago, so it might not be easy to locate, but it is empathy engendering for all involved. A synopsis is pasted below.
Enjoy the movie,
—Peace
THE STORY and CAST
“Zack and Claire, an upwardly mobile couple, have been married for 8 years. As far as Claire’s concerned, they’ve been very happy times. But when her husband begins an extra-marital affair with a gay writer, Claire realizes she and Zack have been living a lie all this time.”
Thirty-three-year-old A. Scott Berg conceived Making Love after six of his friends came out after marriage. “This is the next big social movement,” he said, after the men left their wives for other men. ” What the black movement was in the sixties, and the feminist movement in the seventies, they gay movement will be in the eighties.”
Sandler hesitated, because the story “touched certain buttons I’d never allowed to be touched in my work.” Sandler later became the only out-of-the-closet member of the making Love production team. He told the Advocate, “I went through a period of telling myself that my homosexuality tendencies were just a phase and I was only experimenting.” This is reflected in Zack Elliot (Michael Ontkean), who marries, both despite and because of his homosexuality. Marriage to Claire (Kate Jackson) is happy and sexually fulfilling, but…
“I have been involved with men in the past,” said Sandler of his prior relationships, “but I was always the one to break it off. This is the case with Bart McGuire (Harry Hamlin), who – though long uncloseted – is unwilling to commit to relation ships beyond a physical level.
“Zack is a character in transition, trapped by the expectations of those closest to him. he’s allowed others to shape him and tends to live by the rules. he doesn’t fully know himself. it isn’t until he meets Bart that he begins to break through, to come to terms with his sexual identity. Zack is determined to avoid a double life. He know the only shame is in lying.”
It is Claire with whom straight audiences identify, and she was the ad’s centerpiece, posing with both men. “Most people find two men together alien or threatening…Even after Zack comes out, Claire says she wants her baby to have somebody like him to look up to. The audience discovers the situation isn’t as threatening as they may have thought.”
Making Love’s gay sexuality is presented gradually. Driving through Los Angeles, Zack spots a handsome, rugged male couple on a motorcycle. At night he parks in a gay backstreet, lets a man into his car, then suddenly changes his mind. He visits a gay bar but retreats the first time a man makes advances. But that same bar is Bart’s home away from home, where he picks up Tim, a handsome young trick played by John Dukakis. Dukakis – whose father was running for reelection as governor of Massachusetts at the time – asked his agent, “Would you play a homosexual if your father was running for office?” Answer: “Sure. But if I were really gay, I wouldn’t.” Similarly, some extras in the gay-bar scene declined to be included in the stills photographs.
When Zack and Bart meet, they go back to Bart’s house. they kiss in a long-shot, after Bart admits he is gay and Zack allows that he is “curious”. The men move into the bedroom. In a medium-shot, they remove each other’s shirts and kiss passionately on the lips. Next they appear in bed together, and Bart permits Zack to spend the night. One gay critic, more attuned to the more blunt Taxi zum Klo, called the kiss “as tasteful as a Harlequin romance.” But for straight audiences it was heavy stuff.
July 20, 2004 at 3:44 pm
Man in Charge
There is a very basic misunderstanding about the institution of marriage. I hate to state the facts, but monogamous marriage is UNNATURAL. It is contrary to the nature of human males, it is contrary to the genetically predetermined behavior of primates in general, and it is the cause of much consternation between women and men.
The bond between male and female can be devoted and emotional, yet the male will ALWAYS have the instinct to look at other women, and perhaps to secretly desire to have sex with them. From the female point of view, the man should be theirs and theirs alone. These two perceptual viewpoints which are quite different, but very real.
Part of the DL phenomena is the need for variety by the male. Men are not wired for monogamous relationships. In nature, sexual fidelity is virtually nonexistent. Biologists used to believe otherwise, but DNA testing has revealed that while some animal species, mostly birds, are socially monogamous, virtually none are sexually monogamous. Even geese and swans cheat. Most mammals don’t even attempt monogamy. Males in virtually every species are easily excited. They prefer novelty to familiarity, opportunity to inhibition, sex to celibacy. After all, females are born with a very small number of eggs (compared to the unending male sperm production), and if a woman gets pregnant, she must produce a placenta, milk, and care for the child; so it pays for women to tell shit from Shinola, to be picky, and to be comparatively slow to warm up. A female who plays fast and loose with her eggs is likely to get saddled with lower-quality offspring, and possibly with a “mate” who isn’t available for anything other than mating. For females, therefore, it pays to choose a sexual partner carefully.
Women may NEVER understand the reasons for the DL or even for “cheating”. That’s just the way it is. Perhaps you should turn the other cheek at your man when he goes to the strip bars. He cant have sex with her (the stripper), and at least in California, he cant even TOUCH her. If he has sex with a prostitute, he may bring home a disease, or have a child out of wedlock. If he is allowed to have a little “somthin’ somthin'” with his male friends (whom you might even know), he is probably safe. Especially if the friend is married. The activity will not be constant, and you are in no threat of losing your man to a gay relationship (unless he’s gay).
UNDERSTAND the male sexuality, and you can control it to some degree. After all, that’s what we men do to get women. Tell her “I love you” and you will get the puzzy. Even if you didnt mean what you said. It sucks, but its the reality.
July 19, 2004 at 5:36 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
To: Just Me
I am confused about your post. Is that what Dr. Phil said or what you are saying? I did not get to see the show but recorded it. What did you think about it? Was anything on the show useful in terms of this board?
–Peace
July 19, 2004 at 3:22 pm
justme
From Dr. Phil’s website:
The man who marries a woman or a man says this is the one!!!!
I think you make a vow , you keep it.
I was lied to fromthe beginning and I am never going to say oh poor him.
I didn’t lie and I didn’t cheat, but I sure was taken advatage of by a man who did both.
He knew he was gay and he chose to marry me. I didn’t know he was gay until 25 years later.
He said he was not a sexual man.
I pretty much hate him for what he did to me and the children we adopted.
There is where the choice comes in.
There is no excuse for what he did. Just is wrong…plain and simple.
July 19, 2004 at 3:01 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
To All:
The Dr. Phil episode airing today might be of some interest—gays/lesbians in heterosexual marriages/relationships.
July 16, 2004 at 2:30 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
This should have read…
I am a firm believer in the adage “It does not matter how you feel about the person, the question is how do you feel about yourself in the context [of] the other?”
July 16, 2004 at 2:24 pm
Woman In Charge of Self
Man In Charge,
Also pleased to make your acquaintance.
“The one thing no one has asked you here is: would YOU consider a relationship with a DL man yourself?”
“Are you SO sure of yourself that you can say conclusively that you would or would not consider such a relationship? Before you respond, lets say that the man in question is highly educated, handsome, generous, sensitive, humerous AND romantic, and very masculine and……BISEXUAL, but willing to give that up for marriage. Would you go for it?”
Now, aren’t you quite the provocateur :-). OK, you’re good! I’ve been reflecting on your query for a couple of days. In the interim, I had a conversation with a male relative regarding the issues surrounding black male and female demographics as they relate to intimate/romantic relationships. Based upon your questions, the conversation with my male relative, and my own musings over time…
…there are few things in life that I have categorically and conclusively ruled out. In my past, I have dated diverse males…some I experienced as heterosexual, some I experienced as bisexual, and some were searching to understand themselves on many levels.
“highly educated, handsome, generous, sensitive, humerous AND romantic, and very masculine”
Let’s not forget “church-going” (maybe even a pastor or a deacon) 😉
This is the description of a fantasy of the perfect man (of any ethnic or racial makeup) that many females possess. It is a tall order. What many females fail to often realize, however, is that the average (yes, average) male (of any orientation) does not fit this bill. Many bisexual and gay males, however, fit this description completely. It has also been my experience that many males who are not completely heterosexual in orientation or action tend to be more introspective, more sensitive, more romantic, more creative, more versatile, more flexible in their interactions with the world (and women), and more cognitively stimulating. This is all very compelling.
Many of these same males are stereotypically very attractive and if not stereotypically fine, handsome, pretty, cute, or drop dead gorgeous, they are so in tune with that which is desirable to members of both sexes that they have mastered the art of verbally and nonverbally exuding that which is appealing to both sexes and all races. Bar any hang ups about the body or the self, many are often very visceral and seductive. Notwithstanding the above, by far, the most charming and emotionally seductive males I have ever known (United States, Western Europe, and Africa) have been non-heterosexual in either orientation or action.
I said all of that to say that it is often much easier to be drawn to a non heterosexual male than to one who is not. Being drawn to a non heterosexual male and marrying one, however, are different prospects. I do not see any sexuality as simply a difference in sexual tastes. There is so much that informs human sexuality and sexual orientation. I, for instance, would not be willing to give up that to which I am oriented in service of marriage to someone that I love (regardless of depth). It would be like giving up a piece of my “self”…an integral piece of me. Because I, like other humans, project my “stuff” onto others, I would presume that at some point, like me, my partner would reflect on the loss or feeling of deprivation and, perhaps, resent both himself and me (for representing that deprivation). It’s very much like when a person gets married but does not really believe in monogamy. It compounds the challenges inherent to marriage. It’s always a challenge to act inconsistent with deep seated beliefs and attitudes…at least for me.
At this moment, I cannot imagine being completely happy with a non heterosexual male in large part because I cannot imagine him being completely content with me. Having shared with my male friends who are struggling, searching, or on the DL, I can’t stretch my imagination to see beyond the angst they (and ultimately their partners) experience to envision a “happily ever after” for the male who “gives up” his bisexual orientation or activities (presumably, for me) or for myself. I am a firm believer in the adage “It does not matter how you feel about the person, the question is how do you feel about yourself in the context other the other?”
I love film and music analogies and extrapolations. Upon reflection, my musical analogies for the experiences of females involved with non heterosexual males (who are also on the DL) is that many females begin the relationship feeling and acting like Beyonce…totally “zip zooted” and…”Crazy in Love”. In the middle of the relationship, they see the experience, according to Tracy Chapman, as…”Smoke and Ashes”. And at the end of the day…and the relationship, those same women who were crazy (and dangerously) in love are wailing the words of Natalie Imbruglia because they are…”Torn.”
The guiding question for me was whether the elation of initially being Crazy in Love would, on balance, mitigate or outweigh the experience of being ultimately “Torn.” If past is prologue…
I must also share that I distinguish between sexual orientation and action because I believe that many males (contrary to much female belief) are willing to experiment with all types of sexuality for thrills, curiosity, variety, and other reasons that may have little or nothing to do with their sexual orientation. Just like a person can be same-sex oriented and live an other-sex lifestyle, one can be other-sex orientated and live a lifestyle that involves same-sex functioning. So, my reflection is related to males who are bisexual in orientation and expression and those who are searching.
–Peace
Woman in Charge of Self (yes, handle inspired)
July 15, 2004 at 12:54 pm
Man in Charge
Like I said above, the nipple thing may not ALWAYS spell “gay”. But most men I know will ask for oral sex before they ask for nipple stimulation. I dont speak for all men on the DL or all men period. Contrary to the women here who are in denial about bisexuality and homosexuality (thinking they are one and the same), I dont secretly want to wear panties and a dress, want to be a woman. There is nothing feminine about me. Having said that, things that appeal to guys in general are pretty much universal. Kinda like that little spot behind your ears just below the lobe you like to be licked and kissed at (dont tell me you dont know what I mean!).
Perhaps I am being a little presumptuous. The football coach down the street who is totally straight brags to other men about his roses, begonias and tulips. He picks his flowers and makes arrangements for his home, and spends a lot of time in his garden. If I said in conversation “Bradley loves flowers, and making floral arrangements”, some dudes might laugh or think he is gay. NOT! Maybe a man who likes his nipples to be stimulated is not gay. Then again, it is kinda unusual.
July 15, 2004 at 9:42 am
carefree
But what if the guy had his nipples stimulated by a woman before and knows that he likes that, so he asks you to do it? How does that make him gay??
July 15, 2004 at 8:42 am
concerned4u
Man in charge- are you still on the DL or have you given that up?
July 15, 2004 at 2:33 am
Man in Charge
Hi Ursula! You are really providing a resource here for people. Im glad you have stayed out there for us.
About your question:
I dont know if that is ALWAYS true, but its like this: If you play with a man’s nipples and he likes it, then that’s one thing. If he ASKS you to play with his nipples, then that’s another. Every gay dude I have ever met seems to have a fascination with his nipples, and he may even have one pierced. Personally, I dont find nipple stimulation very erotic, but more irritating. But that’s just me. Same goes for anal stimulation. A finger every now and then might be something different FROM MY WIFE, but I never let a man go anywhere near the back door. LOL.
The biggest giveaway for a gay man in the closet is overreaction to gays. A secure man who gets a compliment from a gay man will feel flattered. A gay man in the closet who gets the same compliment will become hostile and angry. Why? Because he feels like he is being “outted”, and gets defensive. A man on the downlow behaves mostly like a straight man, and we are hard to detect. Those women who THINK they can spot us already have their own idea of what a man on the DL is, and they are usually wrong. Its not a lifestyle, its a situation.
July 14, 2004 at 10:20 am
Ursula
Man in Charge,
Are you saying that if a man wants to be stimulated via the nipple that he is gay?
Just wondering!
July 14, 2004 at 2:31 am
Man in Charge
TYPICAL.
“To the men on the downlow who are infecting women and children (regardless of color, age, or religion)I hope you read this and all that you are doing to us women and YOUR children comes back and bites you in the ass, and not the way your use to. If you are a man on the downlow who is honest with the women you come in contact with, you use protection or talk to only bisexual woman I APPLAUD you and wish you all the luck in the world; However I don’t care if you are in the closet, behind the closet, next to it or on top of it and you may not want to admit this and really I don’t care but YOU ARE GAY!”
Poor thing. You are so ignorant, I just dont think I can give you an adult response, but I will try. You simply dont get it. Gays DONT LIKE TO HAVE SEX WITH WOMEN. If they are gay, then why would they even bother to try to have sex with a woman? There are certainly enough men out there to satisfy them. You will probably become a victim. You are like the Catholics who think that their priests who have been forced to take a “vow of celibacy” will actually DO so. The fact is that people need sex, and even trying to be celibate will force very strange changes to happen in a man’s psyche. He may become a molester, or perhaps a murderer. Same goes for nuns. You refuse to accept the truth for what it is, and therefore miss your meeting with Reality.
Its like this: both men and women who like to have sex with the opposite sex AS WELL AS the same sex are called BISEXUALS. Get it through your head, okay? I love my wife and my children, but before the children, there was just her and myself. We had sex about every other day, and I wasnt interested in having sex with men. I probably had the capacity (as most men probably do), but I never acted upon it. I am definitely NOT gay, and I could never be happy with being with just a man. If I had to choose and forever give up one of them, then it would be men. HOWEVER, I have enjoyed my downlow sex. I am not sorry I had my DL experiences, I am sorry that I cant share the truth with my wife.
Women like you are the reason that bisexual brothers go on the downlow. You accuse them of being gay, even though THEY know they arent gay, they dont want to be labeled gay by any woman. Even the gay or bisexual dudes they mess around with arent going to do that. Ask any openly gay man about male bisexuality, and he will help you to understand what I mean. Gay men avoid relationships with bisexuals because they know that women will always be in the picture. They are just as demanding as wives are when it comes to sharing their “mate”.
You and women like you need to get REAL and stop being so arrogant. Dont sit back and think you have it figured out until you have lived a little more, and been in a few relationships.
To “Woman in Charge of Self” (kissing hand) Pleased to meet you. Now YOU are a truly enlightened woman. The one thing no one has asked you here is: would YOU consider a relationship with a DL man yourself? I have read your comments, and your handle (inspired by mine?) says a lot about you. Are you SO sure of yourself that you can say conclusively that you would or would not consider such a rlationship? Before you respond, lets say that the man in question is highly educated, handsome, generous, sensitive, humerous AND romantic, and very masculine and……BISEXUAL, but willing to give that up for marriage. Would you go for it?
To “Confused”
“I have been married now for one year. My husband and I have had several problems. He goes to so many extremes, moving out and moving back in. He gets angry for no apparent reason and always has something to hide, cell phone, pager, wallet, brief case etc. On night he went out o meet on of he “boys” and came home and slept at the foot of the bed. I know he was with other men because I called him on his cell phone and I heard them in the background. He frequently wants to have anal sex, which I will not do. He always wants to have sex from the back, and asks me to grab his butt. After we have sex he wants me to hold him! He also wants his nipples and chest kissed or rubbed.”
Your man isnt on the down low. HE’S GAY! He is experimenting with straight sex, but he is as gay as Carson on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Why do I say that? If the first hole he goes for is the one in the back, and he wants you to grab his butt, and the whole nipple thing…HAHAHA. He is definitely gay. That doesnt mean that he is a bad guy, but if you want something serious, you should steer clear of him as a potential mate. Wanna try something? Tell him that you think of him as “a close friend”, and watch what happens six months later. You will see who he REALLY is.
July 13, 2004 at 8:17 pm
WHAAAAT IS GOING ON
I am sick and tired of all these men and their down low shit. I think they are the devil’s children. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are sleeping with another man or even the fact that they are black. It is the point that they are deceiving the ones that they claim they love (however giving a woman and YOUR children AIDS is no way to show your love). If you really want to be affectionate with a guy thats your business. They are selfish and I think they should all be in jail for attempted murder and that way they can all have the pleasure that they seek. Trust me if I were in that situation he wouldn’t have to worry about telling his family because I would post it all over town. I could care less about this man wanting to be with another man, that hes black (which is making this whole thing dumb…I dont think its about race or sexuality) Its the fact that he is sleeping with these women and passing AIDS to them and some time HIS and her child. Men are saying oh well its time that women start protecting themselves and its their faults (true somewhat), yet these women are with the man they love, trust and respect. If they had the slightest clue about what was going on and how these men were deceiving them the relationship would end. I’m tired of people making excuses for them well black men cant be gay so they have to hide,its not about being gay that want a thrill, they are addicted to the prison life style (well why don’t they go back), they still want a woman, they have a double negative being black and gay and they cant tell and hurt their family. Well have they thought about a the posibility that a man on the downlow maybe infecting the women in their family. If they like that life style why not get with a girl who is bisexual (she understands) or a man who dresses as a women.
To the men on the downlow who are infecting women and children (regardless of color, age, or religion)I hope you read this and all that you are doing to us women and YOUR children comes back and bites you in the ass, and not the way your use to. If you are a man on the downlow who is honest with the women you come in contact with, you use protection or talk to only bisexual woman I APPLAUD you and wish you all the luck in the world; However I don’t care if you are in the closet, behind the closet, next to it or on top of it and you may not want to admit this and really I don’t care but YOU ARE GAY!
July 10, 2004 at 9:00 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Ursula,
Thank you for your quick reply and even more for creating this discussion format.
July 10, 2004 at 1:48 pm
Ursula
To Woman in Charge of Self:
To answer your requestion, re the new requirement that people enter a valid email, well this is all an effort on my behalf to get rid of the spam that is flooding my weblog. As you will notice, this is a daily weblog that I keep. So while comments continue to be posted to this entry from August 2003, I continue to post new entries to my site on a daily basis. With that comes spam. So instead of turning off the comments section, I am trying to reduce the spam. I realize the requirement that you enter a valid email address might scare some people off — but they can then just make one up. Since I know that some of you are quite involved in the dialog here re this very important issue, I promise not to remove or edit even if the email address is not valid. So carry forth.
July 10, 2004 at 11:53 am
Woman in Charge of Self
To Ursula,
I am not sure what prompted you to initiate this new identity revelation process whereby you are posting everyone’s e-mail address, but I find it highly improper and inappropriate on a discussion board…particularly one such as this… where you are encouraging people to share not only thoughts but to share their experiences being on the DL. What, pray tell, is up with that? Do you think that men on the DL are going to continue responding and sharing under such circumstances? If we cannot continue to hear from them, how are we to learn first hand about the issues regarding the DL as they understand them?
Please RSVP to the board.
Thanks and peace.
July 10, 2004 at 11:42 am
Woman in Charge of Self
Dear Confused,
“…one of the very reasons Black females are overrepresented in the HIV statistics and one of the reasons Black females are “deceived” in relation to males on the DL is because they have been socialized to not believe what they feel or know in service of, instead, allowing an external body to define reality. Hence, instead of a Black female being encouraged to think for herself in relation to her understating of the world (including males) she is encouraged to believe that the emperor is dressed in the most exquisite finery when, in fact, he is walking down the street buck-naked. (Surely, you recall the children’s story regarding the Emperor’s new clothes.) So, following this line of logic, when females are confronted with evidence or that “gut” feeling that the males with whom they are romantically interacting may not in fact be 100% heterosexual in orientation or lifestyle, they often distrust and invalidate what they “know” and choose instead to embrace the reality of the others.”
What difference does it make what someone on this board has to say about whether your spouse is on the DL? You know much more about your spouse than anyone posting. Furthermore, you know more about how you feel in the relationship than anyone else can imagine.
Let’s just assume that he is not on the DL…do you still want to be married to this man? If he is bisexual and still attracted to you (along with his attraction to men), are you going to be any more pleased with the reality of your life with him? Probabaly not.
Do whatever you have to do to take care of you regardless of what he (or anyone else) tells you is “reality.” What matters more than how you feel about him is how you feel about you in the context of him.
—Peace.
July 10, 2004 at 12:27 am
confused
I have been married now for one year. My husband and I have had several problems. He goes to so many extremes, moving out and moving back in. He gets angry for no apparent reason and always has something to hide, cell phone, pager, wallet, brief case etc. On night he went out o meet on of he “boys” and came home and slept at the foot of the bed. I know he was with other men because I called him on his cell phone and I heard them in the background. He frequently wants to have anal sex, which I will not do. He always wants to have sex from the back, and asks me to grab his butt. After we have sex he wants me to hold him! He also wants his nipples and chest kissed or rubbed.
Is he a DL man? I know the signs are all there, but I have no concrete proof. I have filed for divorce, but he keeps coming around. Why is still harassing me if men are what he desires? Please help me, confirm what I already know so that I can stop blaming myself for my failed marriage.
July 9, 2004 at 2:54 pm
just words
School Teacher, I have done alot of catch up reading since returning to this site. I am really touched by what you offered to us to think
on. Out of everything that I read I can truly say that what touches me more than anything is being real and coming from the heart. I feel as if you really are concerned for more than just yourself, but for us all as a people. So many things that you mentioned in your post are shameful realities. It saddens me to know that we are still having to battle so many things that has set us back so far for way to long. I for one am tired of Mississippi Burning within my own race, some of you will know what that means. I am tired of lending the hand that has slowed our progression and some sence has stopped our growth altogether. The thing that I am beginning to realize is that this things goes so much deeper than a brother being on the DL. This plague is something that has to be stomped out. I have realized that we seldom remember that our lives and actions is something that effects us all being that this is one big chain. What I do is eventually going to return to me. So with that realization I have to keep in mind that my actions will indeed touch close to home, not only that but will eventually knock on the front door, come on in and sit beside you on the couch. Like School Teacher, my sister is out there also and she is a really good girl. Not because she is my sister but because she is really a good person. I remember once while she was in high school and I was in middle, she dated a brother that was on the down low. She did not find out to some years later while I was still in high school, but she was still affected by that. She was hurt, not by A.I.D.S. but emotionally, although it could have been worse. Well I am not going to get lenghthy, I just want us to all take inventory of our actions and then try and figure out the short term and long term effects. I am. Still praying??
July 8, 2004 at 3:06 pm
School Teacher
To Man in Charge,
I read the conversations that you had back and forth with the women who sent messages. I know that you were offended by the comments and I am glad that the sister stepped up and loosened that anger. I am glad that you apologized and were then able to set the record straight in your case.
I do agree that we as black women need to check our behavior. I am speaking very generally. This does not apply to all. But, there are many black woman out there, whose behavior is inexcusable. I can’t walk into a store without black women looking at me, rolling their eyes and making comments. We hate one another and that is a shame. We are the only race that does that. Before, it was the big issue with losing our black men to white women and women of other races because of our behavior. Now we worry about losing our men to his boy Mike.
Also know that many black women act the way they do because of the black men in their lives. Although your wife is the way that you say, you still have choices.
I also do not like how people take certain parts of the bible that they like and use them when it is convenient.
What bothers me about this DL thing is that the brothers who are on the DL and giving their wives and children AIDS. I know a DL brother who claims that he has the most beautiful and most wonderful wife in the world but cannot resist men. He never uses a condom because he says that it takes away from the spontaneity of the act and he only has one male partner. Do you think that his wonderful beautiful wife and three beautiful kids deserve to die a painful death because of AIDS?
I do not have a problem with gay or bisexual men. I have a problem with black women being the highest infected among AIDS cases. Black people as a whole only account for 12.3 % of the entire races. Black women are dying….dying because we trust our black men. When I look at a black man, I am proud because I know that as long as he is there I am protected. I don’t want to be scared that he will give me AIDs. A lot of black women are scared out of their minds. They are suffering and the men who are not on the DL are suffering.
I am married with two children. I trust my husband. I do not want him to cheat with a woman or man. Cheating is cheating. I have a job. He has been laid off and decided to pursue a Master’s while I work. I totally support him. After dealing with sixth graders, I come home and cook dinner and give my husband and family everything they need. I am not materialistic. I do not require jewelry. I drive a used car. I take care of my family. Do I deserve to be betrayed? I should not have to use a condom, because I am married and dedicate my existence to my family. Am I stupid for not using protection with this man that I have known since I was a child…this man that I took vows with before GOD?
I know that the black community does not accept homosexuality and that men will not be considered men if they are openly gay or bisexual. I know that there is no easy way out of this. So please just protect your families and black women by protecting yourselves. If you choose to live your life that way, that is your business. Just make sure that you are being cautious. You might meet my sister today or tomorrow. She is the same as I. Don’t ruin her life. She does not deserve that.
Man In Charge…God bless you and all other DL brothers who struggle day to day living in secrecy. God bless all black women. Let’s protect ourselves not only for us, but for our children as well.
July 7, 2004 at 9:10 am
Anonymous
To No Name:
While I can understand your irritation (based upon the comments below), do you think these sentiments actually encourage men on the DL to “quit” being on the DL or to come out of the closet? If so, how? If not, what is your ultimate purpose?
On another note, has anyone been reading the J.L. King book? Any thoughts?
“I read your post about being married and on the downlow. You sound like a woman…wanting to be held, flowers, cards, and massages and shyt.
I think that underneath those boxers, are a pair of pink panties. You need to quit!”
July 5, 2004 at 6:00 pm
Anonymous
I read your post about being married and on the downlow. Aren’t you afraid of AIDS? You sound like a woman…wanting to be held, flowers, cards, and massages and shyt.
I think that underneath those boxers, are a pair of pink panties.
A man usually feels like a man when he is providing, feels needed, important, wanted and appreciated.
My arms can’t reach around my man, but his big strong arms can wrap around me twice.
This is how God intended. Anything else is an abomination.
You should let your wife know that you are not satisfied and give her the option of making her own decision on whether she wants to be married to a homosexual or be free to find a mature, fidel, respectful, wholesome and healthy relationship.
You need to quit!
July 1, 2004 at 11:50 pm
trying to understand
I think that it is very important that we do not get caught up in attacking one other and forget the major issue at hand- truly gaining insight and understanding into downlow behavior. It is very obvious that there are many intelligent individuals posting on this board, and I have enjoyed reading your different perspectives and thoughts on downlow behavior. However, I do not like to see individuals disrespecting one another and putting down others points of view. We are all intelligent, and we can all learn from each other. This should be a place where we come to express our thoughts, ask questions, and gain insight from one another. Instead it seems as if it is turning into a board where individuals come to try to prove their intelligence and discuss their degrees. People, lets not get sidetracked. To ladylike and Woman in charge, I think that in some ways you both make valid points in your post. However, lets all remain respectful of others and their veiwpoints.
July 1, 2004 at 4:20 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
By the way, this…
“I feel (yes, I am saying I FEEL) that you are threatened by me ”
is a thought—not a “feeling.”
July 1, 2004 at 4:13 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Ladylike–
Again, you are projecting. Not just a great deal of venomous negativity and innuendo, but a mass of the inconsistencies with which you attempt to charge me. The issue is not that you do not have the time to “break down” my posts the way I did yours; the fact of the matter is that you in fact “cannot” do so. Assuming arguendo that you have this graduate degree in something, I find it abhorring that your professors failed to teach you how to effectively engage in analytical reasoning. It is further appalling that they taught you something that obviously serves no purpose to anyone in the world other than you. Your obvious inability to look beyond the surface and the concrete to the abstract and beyond your own concept of reality is one of the very reason why you remain so baffled about males on the down low and what you can’t seem to move beyond anger to something useful to actually moving forward. Why are you even posting on the board if we cannot come to you to share, for our well being, that which you have supposedly mastered via advanced studies? Why is it that what you have studies seems to have, according to you, no relevance on this issues about which you appear to be so upset. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. So, what you are, in effect, stating to us is that you spent a great deal of time, energy and money acquiring something useless. In that case, I think it is best that you keep it to yourself.
Remember, what I stated about projection? You state that my posts are full of inconsistencies and the like. Of course, akin to much of the other things you state, you fail to provide evidence to support any of your contentions. You, however, as I have stated before are a master at none other than projection and deception. As the old saying goes—“You are a liar and the truth ain’t in ya.”
First you wrote:
I majored in existential phenomenological “philosophy”
Then you wrote:
I have a graduate degree in existential phenomenological “psychology”
As I stated in my previous post, res Ipsa Loquitur—The thing speaks for itself.
Exactly which graduate degree do you have—one in philosophy or one in psychology?
Are you a “philosopher” or a “psychologist?”
Please, think before you answer…
Also, please note that there is no such thing as either a doctorate in existential phenomenological philosophy or psychology. You may have taken such a class, but mark my words, no university in the continental United States awarded you a Ph.D. in such.
And, before you tell us any more lies, make sure you can remember the first one you told so that we can at least get a sense of consistency.
I am glad that you keep writing, however, because you are providing a perfect example for females to see what happens when one is dealing with someone on the down low—at some point in time, there will often be extreme defensiveness and the stories will not always hang together.
ex. 1) Last night, I was at the “bar” drinking with my buddies.
ex. 2) Last night, I was at the “park” drinking with my buddies.
Did it ever occur to you before you started lying about 2 degrees—which you undoubtedly do not have, that there might, in fact, be someone viewing this board who might actually take you more seriously and place increased stock in what you have to say—which by h way has been quite negative and dismissive not only of the thoughts of others, but of the existence of others simply because you don’t believe they exist.
For the record, I have no reason to be threatened by you, as you have provided nothing to affect such a response. Again, you engaging in projection?.
The teachers, who provided you with the doctoral degrees you claim, have failed you miserably. Why? The fact that you can’t seem to entertain the concept of one having an independent thought is, in fact, ludicrous. You keep asking for a source and I keep telling you I am the source. I guess, what it would take for you to simply accept the independent thought of another is for them to assert fake graduate levels credential as you have claimed.
Since you don’t seem to be able to share any of your knowledge as such relates to the DL, can you, perhaps, direct us to where we might find your thoughts on other philosophical and psychological issues—as we both should know that one acquires a PhD. in philosophy to teach and research on the university level—unless you have found something more esoteric to occupy your thoughts and time.
On another note, what does that screen name mean?
What does it mean to be “like a lady?” Why are you really DL bashing and attempting to bash me simultaneously?
On a final note, it would be a pleasure to hear from someone other than you (and me, for that matter) for a change. For instance, I seem to recall a poster going by the name of “Man in Charge”…
—Peace
July 1, 2004 at 9:37 am
ladylike
I feel (yes, I am saying I FEEL) that you are threatened by me because I have called you on your crap. Your little “meditate on that” at the end of your first post showed that you felt you have given us knowledge, when really you just summarized in WAY too many words what everyone else had already said.
You called me a liar but I don’t care if you believe me or not. Your disbelief does not take anything away from what I have accomplished in my life. Like I said before, I have a graduate degree in existential phenomenological psychology. But I wouldn’t quote you in any of my papers, because 1) I graduated 3 years ago, and 2)the paper would be full of redundancy and contradictions. And if you were familiar with any of the philosophers that I mentioned, then you would know who I was talking about, as the spelling, trust me, was not far off at all. I asked that you put those terms in a search engine as I’m sure you did before you starting writing about “projection”. I guess sarcasm doesn’t translate well over the internet.
And don’t, because I am educated, try to disguise your lack of having an identifiable source for your ludicrous “human self-preservation rules” by falling back on the old “you wouldn’t understand with your eurocentric and westernized way of looking at the world.” How very Spike Leenian of you.
Furthermore, I don’t have time to dissect your post piece by piece as you so ineffectively did mine. And to use a philosophical theory to talk about men on the DL makes as much sense as using a Stars Wars analogy.
June 30, 2004 at 3:28 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Ladylike,
Of course, I respect your understanding of your “reality” and your “truth.” Thank you for sharing your recent thoughts. I am going to attempt to reflectively share my “truth” in response… then, I am going to have to get back to spending more time in the real non-cyber world.
“You’re right in one regard. I shouldn’t have called what you said bullshit.”
1. Let me begin by saying; your first level of analysis is faulty, as you continue to presuppose that you, for some reason, stand as the ultimate arbiter of the reality of all. One of the very relevant challenges females face is learning how to define reality for themselves. Females have historically been socialized to believe that their perceptions of reality are, indeed, fallible and only legitimized via external validation. Hence, you believe that I am going to look to you to tell me that I am in fact “right in one regard.” Wrong. I am right, according to me, in every regard—until proven (via reasoned analysis or evidence) otherwise (a task which you have failed to achieve). My point is that your unwillingness or inability to comprehend all that I have stated does not make it bullshit, nor does your vantage point supersede the reality of the others. I am, contrary to your intimations, capable of independent thought.
On a related note: one of the very reasons Black females are overrepresented in the HIV statistics and one of the reasons Black females are “deceived” in relation to males on the DL is because they have been socialized to not believe what they feel or know in service of, instead, allowing an external body to define reality. Hence, instead of a Black female being encouraged to think for herself in relation to her understating of the world (including males) she is encouraged to believe that the emperor is dressed in the most exquisite finery when, in fact, he is walking down the street buck-naked. (Surely, you recall the children’s story regarding the Emperor’s new clothes.) So, following this line of logic, when females are confronted with evidence or that “gut” feeling that the males with whom they are romantically interacting may not in fact be 100% heterosexual in orientation or lifestyle, they often distrust and invalidate what they “know” and choose instead to embrace the reality of the others. Now, I will let you carry this line of thought to its logical conclusion on the issues related to females and males on the DL.
“Only I went to school with people who talked a lot without really saying anything and then acted as if they were brilliant, so I guess when I think I see something like that, it really irks me.”
2. Uppermost, although I do not know you, I seriously doubt that I am, in fact, one of the people with whom you attended school “who talked a lot and really said nothing and then acted as if they were brilliant.” Furthermore, although you have attempted to analogize that which I have shared as “not saying anything” which “irks” you, your analyses of my offerings continues to be fallacious. I have said quite a bit which makes quite a bit of sense to me. Just as you are not the ultimate arbiter of my reality, you accordingly do not determine the extent to which I am or am not brilliant. (I suggest you consider reviewing films such as ”Whale Rider,” “Real Women Have Curves,” and “Mona Lisa Smile” to expand your thinking about attempting to define someone else’s reality, brilliance, or worth.
If you are, in fact, the master or doctor of philosophy that you claim, I am perplexed over your failure/unwillingness to intellectually entertain anything I have shared. I am further dumbfounded by your failure to take all of that existential phenomenological philosophy you mastered and provide our fellow posters with, perhaps, some philosophical “rules” or schools of thought that might better help us to understand the existential and phenomenological foundations of DL males and the females who “love” them. (Yes, I know you think the DL is wrong and Dl men are selfish, cowardice, confused liars who should burn in hell for the sin of lying and “loving.”) Surely, after 6-10 years of studying philosophy, you should be able to offer something extrapolative to this community in the way of thought and action connected to this challenge we face.
In other words…
“I majored in existential phenomenological philosophy so I studied the works of Heidegger, Sarte, Kierkegard(sp?), Romanyshyn (spelled phonetically-feel free to correct) and Laing among others. Now put those words in your search engine and tell me what you come up with. :)”
3. …a real gift would be for you to expound on how the works of the aforementioned theorists might help us to understand the DL. The problem is that you cannot give us the gift, because like the DL male— that you so vehemently rail against— you, too, are the deceiver that you so love to hate. Why can’t you spell the names of the philosophers that you allegedly studied? What purpose would it serve for us to put these words into a search engine? We have you here to explain who these people are and what they think related to this topic.
Since you refused to teach me, I am going to teach you.
Much of your thought regarding DL males is based upon the unconscious process of projection. What is projection? Projection is a defense mechanism, postulated by Freud, which basically states that we are most “irked” by that in others which is also in us, but we fail/refuse to see it in ourselves. You are so bothered by deception, because you are a master…not of academic philosophy, but… of deception. If you have a graduate degree in philosophy, we all have graduate degrees in philosophy. You can’t seem to understand how a DL man could be so selfish and deceptive…I think, however, if you turn the mirror around, you will be able to see exactly how easy it is for someone to lie, and lie, and lie again even when one’s life (or lifestyle, as you say) is not one the line. It’s called empathic awareness…feeling with another. People often lie, because they do not believe the truth would serve them better. For instance, if your truth is that you actually only have a bachelors degree or you only took one philosophy class, then you do not believe that truth would serve you well in trying to assert your intellectual dominance (and “rightness”) on this board. Since, however, I accept that people are imperfect…which is very freeing, by the way…your lying…just like any other human imperfection, is par for the course of life and human interaction. Now perhaps, you might be able to better afford us a personal philosophy on understanding the deception of the DL male based upon your own defensive use of the same process.
“And when someone uses a term like rules or theory, such as in the self-preservation rules, I automatically think that it is an established school of thought, so that’s why I asked you where you got it from.”
4. Anything said on this board is, in essence, a philosophy of thought…including that which you have said. For instance, there exists a body of believers who, in keeping with your thinking, discount the existence of orientation toward more than one sex. I assume you created this “school of thought” based upon your own system of evidence and/or experience. From where exactly do you think schools of thought originate? Someone sits around pontificating about what one sees in the world and then states that “truth” to the world. So, based upon that line, from the moment I said whatever I said, it became a school of thought. I guess because your existential phenomenological philosophical studies failed, however, to attend to the philosophies of Black females, you may not feel comfortable with me (and by extension, you [as a Black female]) establishing a school of thought independent of Europeans with phalluses.
“Back to topic.
My point is that gay men should not date or marry women. I don’t believe in bisexuality, so I think this DL thing is just a way to cover being gay.”
5. Do you mean that same sex oriented men should not marry or date any female, or do you mean that same sex oriented males should not date or marry females who do not know (or do not have reason to know) that their male partners are not 100% heterosexual in orientation or lifestyle? In the instance of those females who do not know or who do not have reason to know, I agree that it would be most constructive for same sex males to refrain from dating and marrying those who have not given informed consent to such a partnership. If, however, a female knowingly chooses to partner with a same sex oriented male for reasons that make sense to the two of them, then…
You indicate that you do not believe in bisexuality. I can imagine that for you it is a difficult concept to wrap your mind around. It is a concept that is difficult for many who do not understand themselves as having such an orientation. Just because you don’t believe it, however, does not make it not so. As you indicated in a recent post, orientation is not merely about sexuality but emotionality.
Admittedly, many males initially identified as bisexual, but when “out”— are 100% homosexual in orientation and lifestyle. (A look at development theories related to sexual orientation identity development sheds some light on why this may be the case.) This fact, however, does not provide unmitigated proof that one is incapable of being drawn (concurrently or sequentially) to others of the same or opposite sex. Given that I am not male, bisexual, or lesbian, I cannot and will not profess to state that someone’s experience of their sexuality is nonexistent simply because I do “not believe” in such.
My sister, for your sake, it is my hope that if you are a heterosexual female, that your CSI, SVU, gay-dar is working in high gear, because I would guess that any DL male that might happen to get involved with you will refuse to “come out” to you because you do not present as “safe.”
Guess what?
If he is afraid because he perceives you as unsafe, the Star Wars “school of thought” is going to kick in…his fear is going to lead, inadvertently, to your suffering.
-Peace
p.s. Thanks for making me think and please don’t plagiarize any of my thoughts in any of your upcoming school papers 🙂
June 30, 2004 at 11:33 am
ladylike
I don’t believe in bisexuality because, to my knoweldge, men who claim to be bisexual but are involved primarily with a men do not leave their lovers because they fell in love with a woman. It seems like a significant number of bisexual men who are open with their sexuality end up choosing men. If bisexuality exists, wouldn’t it be possible for a bisexual man to fall in love with a woman and forsake all men to be with her? Why must they go back and forth between the sexes? This is based on the assumption that bisexuality is not just based on who one has sexual intercourse with but also who one has an emotional bond with.
June 30, 2004 at 10:28 am
concerned4u
Question- Ladylike
Why don’t you believe in bisexuality?
June 30, 2004 at 9:23 am
ladylike
You’re right in one regard. I shouldn’t have called what you said bullshit. Only I went to school with people who talked a lot without really saying anything and then acted as if they were brilliant, so I guess when I think I see something like that, it really irks me.
I am female and I majored in existential phenomenological philosophy so I studied the works of Heidegger, Sarte, Kierkegard(sp?), Romanyshyn (spelled phonetically-feel free to correct) and Laing among others. Now put those words in your search engine and tell me what you come up with. 🙂 I’m not here to expound on philosophy.
And when someone uses a term like rules or theory, such as in the self-preservation rules, I automatically think that it is an established school of thought, so that’s why I asked you where you got it from.
Back to topic.
My point is that gay men should not date or marry women. I don’t believe in bisexuality, so I think this DL thing is just a way to cover being gay.
June 29, 2004 at 5:47 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Ladylike,
Please don’t insist that I must write, think, and approach life as you do in order to be valid. And please don’t say that what I say is bullshit simply because you don’t (or won’t) fully comprehend my line of thought. And, further, please don’t attempt to pull some academic rank in order to teach me a lesson. I don’t train well. I do, however, appreciate the space from which I think you are speaking.
Can you share whether you are biologically male or female and whether you actually have a graduate degree in philosophy? I ask so that I can attempt to put some of your thoughts and my responses into some sort of loose context. For instance, it would be helpful to know which historical philosophers espouse theories most akin to your own.
I was not being facetious in asking you to expound on your perspective on love based upon my discussion of the concept of self preservation. I know that there are many philosophies on love and many types of love and I would love to hear “your” thoughts. I do not learn from constantly sharing my thoughts. I need to hear the thoughts of others to put my own in the context of mutual realties. You asked about the “where” of my theories. As a philosopher, I am sure that you are aware that even as infants we are all philosophers. Why, pray tell, would you need to read my theory verbatim in a book or website to embrace its potential validity in the world?
On self preservation…
Self preservation is not, from my perspective, about the love of others—unless one is looking at the existential interconnectedness of all humans. On an ego centered individualistic level, however, self preservation would rest primarily on striving toward (not necessarily achieving) love of the self, perhaps in exclusion to any love for the others. Might I encourage you to deconstruct the terms “homo”-“sexual” along with the terms “love,” “self,” and “others?” You could write your philosophical theoretical doctoral dissertation on such deconstructive analyses alone.
I think you are asking “what has love got to do with it?” My understanding of the definition of love is rooted in Scripture. The only “love” that I “know” is Agape. I don’t ever expect humans to, in my lifetime, move beyond the romanticized human social construction of love to one that mirrors the love that is God. I expect humans to be imperfect… a little selfish, a little fearful, a little ornery, a little angry, a little childish, a little narrow minded, a little crazy, and at times, a little merciful, a little just, a little caring, a little compassionate, and perhaps a little understanding…which would be…a little freeing.
You apparently have a philosophy of altruism. That, however, is not a reality in which I share. As stated, I believe that people are imperfect (that includes me) and I operate from that premise in all things…rendering me able to act accordingly.
You seem to continue to talk about life in the vacuum of the physical. I am a little shocked that a gradate level philosopher would maintain such a concrete view of the concept of “life.” Again, I am going to ask that you, perhaps give some thought to life as a holistic dynamic, not just some corporal existence. My view of life includes the whole of one’s being.
On the issue of the physical self, I will assume you are being sincere in your question. Males who are oriented to other males are, for many reasons, at higher than average risk for attacks on their physical beings (interestingly enough by other males who are fearful of their own orientations). “Coming out” or “Coming up” subjects them to not only emotional isolation and rejection but also to physical objectification because of the mirror their “truth” reflects to the others. Females do not suffer risk at the same rate because all aspects of female sexuality are, in this society, often viewed as inconsequential, unimportant, marginalized, and subjugated non issues. Female sexuality does not consciously pose the same degree of threat to the male psyche.
I understand that as a philosopher, you may want to continue to “talk” about the DL. I am, however, a pragmatist. I want to know what you have learned about what women should now do with the information they are acquiring.
I will end by saying that “love is many times not love at all, but something else masquerading as love.”
Now, as I asked before, teach me…for I am, indeed, listening.
-Peace
June 29, 2004 at 4:06 pm
ladylike
My point in mentioning my degree was to show that you do not have to use a lot of adverbs in your post to prove your intelligence…If you know what you are talking about, then you can say it in 10 words or less and get anyone to understand it.
I am not asking you what “everyone’s” defintion of love is, I am asking you what love IS according to the “human self preservation rules”? I’ve never heard that term before in my life or seen it in any book so I was wondering where it came from.
And to clarify, in your previous post you inferred that a gay man coming out of the closet for the sake of his girlfriend is akin to sacrficing his life. I guess if you meant life as lifestyle then I see where you are going, but I took it to mean that you meant life as existence, as you wrote:
The second cardinal rule of human self preservation…one’s own life is more important to the self than the lives of the others. If you think, for two seconds, that dl men are going to come out of hiding in order to sacrifice their PHYSICAL and emotional lives in order to save the others, you are probably not aware of the reality of the “reality principle.”
What physical life are they sacrificing? Woulldn’t it be the lifestyle they are sacrificing?
June 29, 2004 at 3:39 pm
Woman in Charge of Self
Ladylike,
I surmise, by your post, that you are attempting to let everyone know that by having a graduate (is that M.A. or Ph.D.?) degree in philosophy you are, in fact, the ultimate arbiter of reality. My mother once said, that if one is truly smart, one does not have to speak it forth, instead, res ipsa loquitur—“It” speaks for itself.
At any rate, instead of merely attempting to attack my vantage point on human functioning, it would be most beneficial for all reading to have the benefit of your philosophical meanderings on the matter. A Socratic, Platonic, Gandhian, Gibranian, Sophoclesian, Spike Leenian analysis would be more than welcome.
To answer your query, I do not know what “everyone’s” definition of love happens to be. Instead of asking me, however, to provide an explanation on the extent to which “your” definition of love and my theorizing about the cardinal rules relate, perhaps you (in all of your learned wisdom) can, in fact, elucidate the relativity of the two constructs. And while you are providing luminary analyses on the first issue, please conclude with some discussion on the extent to which one’s life and one’s lifestyle are mutually exclusive realties.
Philosophize….Teach me the BIG differences. As the young prophet Samuel said, “Speak, for your [student] is listening.
June 29, 2004 at 3:06 pm
ladylike
You said I made your post too simplistic? I have a graduate degree in philiosphy, so I think I know when I read bullshit, or when someone is saying a lot of nothing, such as:
“I have already indicated that to delve into the minutia attendant all of the sociopolitical realities surrounding the issue of the down low would be impossible in such a forum, I, however, think that we must, in fact, entertain the complex realities if we are to achieve a more complete understanding. ”
Ummm…ok.?????
“The second cardinal rule of human self preservation…one’s own life is more important to the self than the lives of the others. If you think, for two seconds, that dl men are going to come out of hiding in order to sacrifice their physical and emotional lives in order to save the others, you are probably not aware of the reality of the “reality principle.” ”
Where did you get these human rules of self preservation? Isn’t the definition of love to care for someone’s well-being as much as you care for your own? How does that fit into the self preservation “rules”? A gay man who dates women is not preserving his life, he is preserving his lifestyle- BIG difference.
June 29, 2004 at 2:48 pm
Womanincharge (of Self)
Ladylike (interesting screen name with multiplicative meanings),
Your oversimplification of my posting and human dynamics renders an analysis that does not speak to all that I have attempted to convey or the complexity of human functioning. No, I am not “basically” saying what “you” have “re”-stated in your posting. I am saying exactly what “I” have stated in my posting. If all that you heard in my post was the one-liner condensation you provided, I suggest that you take another moment to read not only the lines, but the interlineations.
Of course, men on the DL are consumed with preservation of the self (or selfishness, if you will). Are we not all?
In fact, your “righteous” indignation is in part about a fear that someone else’s perceived need to preserve self via deception is going to adversely impact your preservation of self via the same deception. The second cardinal rule of human self preservation…one’s own life is more important to the self than the lives of the others. If you think, for two seconds, that dl men are going to come out of hiding in order to sacrifice their physical and emotional lives in order to save the others, you are probably not aware of the reality of the “reality principle.”
Your comments remind me of when parents suggest to children that “things” would be “better” (a relative construct) if the children simply started telling the truth. The children are not so out of touch with reality that they actually believe this. They know that it would clearly be “better” for the adults, but the children also perceive that while the truth may set them free, it also hurts…because if they are Black children, the rod will “spareth” not once it discovers the “truth.” It matters not that the child did something based upon the pleasure principle that had the effect of detriment to another—the child, functioning as a human, seeks to garner as much pleasure in life as possible while suffering the least amount of pain. Such is analogous to the life of a closeted man.
I have already indicated that to delve into the minutia attendant all of the sociopolitical realities surrounding the issue of the down low would be impossible in such a forum, I, however, think that we must, in fact, entertain the complex realities if we are to achieve a more complete understanding.
Ultimately, a Black woman cannot sit around waiting for a man (or anyone) to tell her the truth about a man. She must know her own truth about herself which will allow her to see and accept the truth that is the others. If a physically beautiful, 40ish year-old, graduate degree having, career, house, cat, dog, good credit, kind hearted, conscious plethora of afro locks upon his head, beautiful smile and person, male childhood soul mate, small or large host of very close male friends (with whom he is extremely emotionally tethered) having black man, does not want to commit to the equally beautiful and wonderful you ( I mean “you” theoretically), then as my friend would say, “there is a flag on the play.” If a beautiful “thugged out” brotha, blingin’ from ear to ear and head to rear, singing it’s getting’ hot in her’ and I’m a tip drill. Oops, I need a tip drill is singing in your ear homoerotic hip hop lyrics form year to year, ther’ is a flag on the play.
If women chose to ignore the flags on the play, it is women who will surely pay. If out of desperation, or fantasy, or fear, women choose to ignore the flags on the play and continue to play, Black women are going to pay…the ultimate fare.
The statistics suggest that 1 in 10 of all individuals is gay or lesbian. These statistics are based upon self report. This simply means that these are the numbers of people who have openly admitted to such. Let us then consider that the overwhelming majority of gay and lesbian people are not “out.” Therefore the statistics represent what is known as underreporting. Hence, the actual number is much higher. Let’s say for the sake of prudence and erring on the side of caution that only one additional male in 10 is not practicing a heterosexual lifestyle or is simply not heterosexual in orientation. That leaves the cosmos with 8 men out of ten (this is an overly modest estimate) who are “straight.”
Black males are disproportionately represented in prison and high school and college drop out statistics. When one starts to consider even a few of the possible statistics surrounding the realities of Black males, one begins to see a statistical nightmare in relation to the Black male and female dynamic. Many Black women have convinced themselves that by any means necessary, they will stand by their men—regardless of whether they are in spirit and in truth “their men.” They will have a man come hell or high water…they end up with both… first the rising tide of high water (which they ignore) then the ensuing hell that must follow.
I understand your expressions of pain and of anger. Mark my words, however, you are not going to get an average DL man to be honest with you and thus protect you if he believes that saving you is in some way going to be a sacrificial suicide of any part of him.
“Let him be so that you, too, can be.” Feel free to summarize and meditate on that.
June 29, 2004 at 12:26 pm
lafylike
Womanincharge,
And you wrote all that to say…What?
If I understood you correctly, what you are basically saying is that men on the downlow are so because of societial expectations that a “real” man is a straight man, that they are naturally sexually and/or emotionally attracted to men as well as women, and that women need to be careful when selecting romantic partners.
Gay men on the downlow (for that is really what they are) are selfish in the most sickening sense. They will intentionally harm a woman’s emotional, sexual (and possibly physical in the case of HIV) well-being in order to protect their own status in the world. They harm the men they have affairs with by using their bodies and refusing to acknowledge their relationship in public. Then they cry, “But if people know, terrible things could happen to ME…” ME ME ME. In order to have real love, there has to be some sort of sacrifice for the other. What are downlow men sacrificing? Nothing. They get to keep up the facade because it makes them feel better about themselves.
June 29, 2004 at 5:58 am
Womanincharge(of self)
From: Woman in Charge (of Self)
It is really a blessing to have come across this message board where Black (presumably) people are finally talking about a very human dynamic that has been going on perhaps since time immemorial…men laying with men as men lay with women (my un savvy paraphrase of Scripture).
It is unfortunate, however, that this discussion and the entire public outcry had to come on the backs of the rising tide of women in the throws of a pandemic crisis. The health crisis among Blacks the world over, not withstanding the acute plight, is much greater in depth, scope, and meaning than the current board discussion. The individual, social, political, legal, economic, and spiritual issues underpinning the concerns about which we speak are, too, much more vast that we can completely explore in this venue. Nonetheless, we must continue to explore if we are to strive toward a more humane and real existence for all people.
Everyone has come to this board offering insights, sharing concerns and pains, asking questions, and above all attempting in some way to reach levels of greater clarity, understanding, and wisdom. Some have come expressing indignation and condemnation (both righteous and un-) and others have attacked in attempts at defensive safety.
For those of you who might be fans of Star Wars, you will appreciate this quote by Master Yoda, “I sense much fear in this one. Fear leads to anger, and anger leads to hatred, and hatred leads to suffering.” In my limited experience on this earth, I have yet to meet one who has been in fear who has not ultimately either experienced a sense of suffering or served as a catalyst for the suffering of the others. For many reasons, human sexuality is replete with fear. When we add to this foundation, same-sexuality, fear overtakes reason, compassion, mercy, sanity, love, and reality. When one adds Black people (with our peculiar sexual history, stereotypes, and other related phenomenon) to the context, utter confusion underpins all else.
How does this fear operate?
1) First, all but the most evolved humans are afraid of total isolation. Regardless of one’s loner-type traits, humans are communal beings.
2) Humans, starting from birth, go to drastic lengths to maintain connectedness and to prevent rejection by those upon which the humans believe provide some life sustaining cognitive or physiological need.
3) Humans are driven by a need for self preservation. This primitive evolutionary need often manifests itself in ways that challenge the preservation of the others.
4) Humans do not allow themselves to know their whole selves because it is always necessary in any communal structure to suspend part of the actual self in favor of the collective. Thus, at every moment of every day, most humans are involved in “necessary” deception of self and the others.
5) People can only give what is inside. Thus, if love of self and acceptance of self is not a communal value, then, love of other and true acceptance of other (with all of our human peculiarities and nuance) is not ever really possible.
6) Most people at some point in time are angry about not being able to be who they are. Some people are even more perturbed over the fact that they have been on earth in excess of a half of a century and have yet to “know themselves” intimately.
7) The more repressed one feels and the more one convinces one’s self that one cannot be true to self, the less likely one is to support others in the experience of such freedom. This is often noted by selective and brow beating use of punitive Scripture or punitive and profane name calling. In other words, the function is to keep the others as repressed as the self under the guise of something benevolent or reactionary.
8) Sexuality is one of the areas of human functioning about which taboos and fears have always abound and an area where people like to exert an externalized locus of control and social restraint.
9) Humans attempt to control the sexuality of other humans, in great part due to fear. For instance, as a society, we don’t want adolescents and children engaging in developmentally inappropriate sexuality because we are “afraid” of all of the possible consequences. We don’t want people to have sex out of wedlock because of the fear of myriad consequences. We don’t’ want people who look alike, or who have similar body parts, to be sexual because we are afraid of the consequences. In fact, we, as a society, are so afraid of the aforementioned that we have enacted laws addressing and regulating all of the above. Needless to say…all of the above continues and the secrecy that surrounds the behavior tends to give rise to every fear that gave rise to the regulation and condemnation.
10) The structure and function of the “down low” is a result of fear and the creator of situations giving rise to even greater trepidation.
The “down low” is a coping mechanism devised to protect based upon the first
cardinal rule of survival —Protect thyself from rejecting isolation by the others.
Men who are on the down low are men who are either homosexual (simply
meaning sexual with “same”), homo-curious, or homoerotic. Males (and females)
are homo-curious, homoerotic, or homosexual for reasons too numerous to
explore in this message, but ultimately, men have sex with men, because on some
level, that is the direction of their emotional and erotic energy. Physical and
emotional attraction is a “gut” level human experience. These are not “feelings”
that people have to sit around and drum up. These feelings are not contingent on
third parties. A third party, in fact, has no real bearing on one’s attraction to a
second party. In other words, the “goodness” of one’s partner is not going to stop
one from an awareness that someone else is attractive nor stop you from having a
“gut” level feeling of being attracted to that person. Just as having an unsuitable
partner is not going to suddenly make one find an unattractive person attractive
nor make one muster up gut level er6totic energy for another. Attraction is often
too visceral, primitive, and related to our pasts to be based on significant amounts
of present consciousness. Attraction is about attachment. To whom do we, on a
gut level, perceive a need to connect, to attach, to bond, to become “without
boundaries?” There are numerous males and females who, for genetic,
anatomical, psychobiological, sociological, and spiritual reasons, experience
attraction for those with a high degree of sameness. People spend a great deal of
time attempting to not be who people in fact are. The down low is the
manifestation of an attempt by many males to repress who they are—not just
sexually but spiritually and emotionally. Many of them care deeply for females
and enjoy the maternal like dynamics of relating to a female in the context of a
social-sexual relationship. For many reasons, however, those same men need,
desire, and are inspired by the spirit, body, and soul of that which is familiar.
Some might speculate that men love other men because they are unnatural, while
others might offer that men attach to other men because of a hunger for an absent
father or because of a sexually abusive relationship from childhood. Regardless
of the reason, the fact of the matter is that people are who they are, and one’s
sexual orientation is one of the expressions of the “who” people happen to be.
To my sisters… who are trying to figure out if a male partner is expressing energy
in the direction of other males, first ask yourself, why you are asking the
question.
If you see smoke emerging from a building, do you enter it, or do you proceed
with caution? If you see flames, billowing from every window, do you enter or do
you metaphorically walk away? Or, do you tell yourself, “that this may be the
last opportunity to have a house of my very own” and instead run into the
house…filled with fear vowing that you will find a way to save the house along
with your fantasized vision of the future… and watch your life go up in flames in
the process.
Don’t spend so much time trying to figure out what your man is thinking, feeling,
and doing. Spend greater time, in the alternative, ascertaining how you feel in the
context of this man. If you feel insecure, unsafe, unloved, undesired,
unappreciated, and unsatisfied, it matters not whether he is gay or other wise.
What matters is that you spend more time trying to figure out your own whys and
wherefores. If you are suspicious enough to start playing gay-dar CSI (SVU), you
probably already know what you don’t want to know…he is an either a candidate
or in office for the “down low.” Don’t try to change him. And don’t make the
mistake of becoming your own sexual, mental, and physical contortionist in
an attempt to change and, thus, keep him. Accept him for all that he is and be
clear about what you what to have in your life. “It does not matter how you feel
about the person. What matters is how you feel about YOU when you are with
the person. Don’t let your fear lead to anger, to hatred, and then to suffering via
HIV or other wise.
To my brothers… who have energy, curiosity, or love for males, it is my prayer that you will be able to move beyond the fear, anger, hatred, and suffering to a place of peace and self assurance knowing that even if your mother and you father forsake you, the Creator will, indeed, keep you. Although the cardinal rule of self preservation is to avoid isolating rejection, sometimes, one has to risk the most to gain the greatest. Regardless of what your temporary earthly fear may be telling you about your manhood, it is imperative that you realize that your gender identity and your sexual orientation are not one in the same in definition or in expression and your “Blackness” is contingent upon neither. It is further my desire that you find strength in expressing all aspects of your “self” and that you begin to cultivate the freedom of self that you deeply need. Ascending from down low is not necessarily easy and you may not be able to continue to get the feminine/maternal needs met from diverse females, but what you will have is greater peace of mind, increased self awareness, and the freedoms that only living your most complete truth can afford. Family and friends who truly love the spirit of you, and those who are not concerned about the implications of your sexuality for them, will remain steadfast. Those who do not—never loved the essence of you in the first place. They need you to be fake in order for them to feel safe in their own intrapsychic “fakeness” and they further need you to feel repressed because that has been their realty and they cannot give you any more than that which they themselves have been given.
All adult human relations need to be founded upon informed consent. Brothers and sisters need to be real about who they are and need to determine, based upon a position of knowledge, whether a particular relationship is in the best interest of both. As long as we use social isolation and rejection as a tool of conformity, however, this will be a more than challenging endeavor… and women…Black women…will continue to die —not from a broken heart—but a fear filled one. Because one’s fear leads to one’s anger and anger to one’s hatred and hatred to someone’s suffering.
Women, don’t let fear be the indirect cause of needless suffering going by the moniker of AIDS.
Let him be…so that you, too, can be. Let’s meditate on that.
“The Boldest Measures are the Safest.”
–Peace
June 28, 2004 at 12:45 am
trying to understand
Man in charge,
I would really like your advice on a situation. I am dating this guy that I really care about, and I know that he really cares about me also. However, there are several things about him that make me suspect that he could possibly be on the downlow. First, even though he has confessed to having feelings for me he refuses to commit to a serious relationship right now. He does exercises like pilates and yoga. Sometimes when I watch him very closely, he walks kind of strange. I don’t want to say he is switching, but sometimes it looks like he has a slight sway in his walk. Like maybe he wants to switch or something. He spends a lot of time with his boys and he has this one particular guy friend that he grew up with that he refers to as his soulmate. I don’t want to overeact and get so parnoid that I let a good man get away. He may just act like this and he may need more time before commiting to a serious relationship. However, sometimes I just don’t know about this guy. He says that he is totally against homosexuality and that he thinks any type of homosexuality is digusting. Is there any way that I can tell what is really going on? I really care about this guy and even if he is bisexual I still want to be his friend.I just can’t be in a relationship with him. However, I don’t know how to really dig deep and get the truth from him without offending him. All I really want to know is the truth because I want to know exactly what I am dealing with before I get in too deep and waste a lot of time dealing with this man. He is the type of man I could really fall in love with. Please give your thoughts on this situation. From a man’s point of view, do you think I am being paranoid or does it sound like there could be something to my suspicions?
June 25, 2004 at 2:06 am
just words
Wow, as I look back at the comments I can truly say that we have come a long way together. One other thing is obvious also, sometimes you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. Ladies as I read back I am very taken by how responsive you have been and I thank you. Thank you for your comments, it lets me know that you are actually concerned about me and yourself. Thank you for your reactions, it lets me know that you are trying to atleast talk about what needs to be done to try and understand. Thank you for your scolding, it lets me know that our sons and daughtors might finally learn the truths earlier, although I am childless. Over all, I just thank you for being real enough and strong enough to confront such a touchy topic while trying to keep an open mind. I was reading earlier and came across something that I felt to be very fitting. I hope you ladies have time to stop and read it and know that I do respect my mothers, sisters, nieces, aunts, wifes and girlfriends very much.
While struggling with her reality of being a human instead of a myth, the strong black women passed away. Medical resources said she died of natural causes, but those who knew her knows she died from being silent when she should have been screaming, smiling when she should have been raging, from being sick for so long and not wanting anyone to know because her pain might inconvenience them. She died of an overdose of other peoples clinging to her when she didn’t even have energy for herself.
She died from loving men who didn’t love themselves and only could offer her a crippled reflection. She died from the lies that her grandmother had told her mother and her mother told her about life, men and racism. She died from being sexually abused and having to take that truth everywhere she went every day of her life, exchanging the humiliation for guilt and back again.
She died from asphyxiation, from secrets she kept trying to burn away instead of allowing herself the kind of nervous breakdown she was entitled to, but only white girls could afford. She died from being responsible, because she was the last rung on the ladder and there was no one under her she could dump on. The strong black women is dead.
She died from being dragged down and sat upon un-evolved women posing as sisters and friends. She died from tolerating Mr. Pitiful, just to have a man around the house. She died from sacrificing herself for everybody and everything when what she really wanted to do was be a singer, a dancer, or some magnificent other. She died from lies of omission because she didn’t want to bring the black man down.
She died from myths that would not allow her to show weakness without being chastized by the lazy and hazy. She died from hiding her real feelings until they became hard and bled enough to invade her womb and breast with angry tumors. She died from never being enough of what men wanted, being to much for the men she wanted. She died from being too black and died again for not being black enough.
She died from being misinformed about her mind, her body and the extent of her royal capabilities. She died from knees pressed too close together because respect was never part of the foreplay that was being shoved at her. And sometimes when she refused to die, when she refused to give in she was killed with images of blonde hair, blue eyes and flat butts, being rejected by the OJ’s, the Quincy’s, the Cuba’s, and the Kobe’s.
Sometimes she was stomped to death by racism and sexism, executed by hi-tech ignorance while she carried the family in her belly, the community on her head, and the race on her back!
The strong black women is dead! Or is she?
I know she’s not! Pass this on to all the strong black women you love, respect and admire! I just did.
June 25, 2004 at 2:06 am
just words
Wow, as I look back at the comments I can truly say that we have come a long way together. One other thing is obvious also, sometimes you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. Ladies as I read back I am very taken by how responsive you have been and I thank you. Thank you for your comments, it lets me know that you are actually concerned about me and yourself. Thank you for your reactions, it lets me know that you are trying to atleast talk about what needs to be done to try and understand. Thank you for your scolding, it lets me know that our sons and daughtors might finally learn the truths earlier, although I am childless. Over all, I just thank you for being real enough and strong enough to confront such a touchy topic while trying to keep an open mind. I was reading earlier and came across something that I felt to be very fitting. I hope you ladies have time to stop and read it and know that I do respect my mothers, sisters, nieces, aunts, wifes and girlfriends very much.
While struggling with her reality of being a human instead of a myth, the strong black women passed away. Medical resources said she died of natural causes, but those who knew her knows she died from being silent when she should have been screaming, smiling when she should have been raging, from being sick for so long and not wanting anyone to know because her pain might inconvenience them. She died of an overdose of other peoples clinging to her when she didn’t even have energy for herself.
She died from loving men who didn’t love themselves and only could offer her a crippled reflection. She died from the lies that her grandmother had told her mother and her mother told her about life, men and racism. She died from being sexually abused and having to take that truth everywhere she went every day of her life, exchanging the humiliation for guilt and back again.
She died from asphyxiation, from secrets she kept trying to burn away instead of allowing herself the kind of nervous breakdown she was entitled to, but only white girls could afford. She died from being responsible, because she was the last rung on the ladder and there was no one under her she could dump on. The strong black women is dead.
She died from being dragged down and sat upon un-evolved women posing as sisters and friends. She died from tolerating Mr. Pitiful, just to have a man around the house. She died from sacrificing herself for everybody and everything when what she really wanted to do was be a singer, a dancer, or some magnificent other. She died from lies of omission because she didn’t want to bring the black man down.
She died from myths that would not allow her to show weakness without being chastized by the lazy and hazy. She died from hiding her real feelings until they became hard and bled enough to invade her womb and breast with angry tumors. She died from never being enough of what men wanted, being to much for the men she wanted. She died from being too black and died again for not being black enough.
She died from being misinformed about her mind, her body and the extent of her royal capabilities. She died from knees pressed too close together because respect was never part of the foreplay that was being shoved at her. And sometimes when she refused to die, when she refused to give in she was killed with images of blonde hair, blue eyes and flat butts, being rejected by the OJ’s, the Quincy’s, the Cuba’s, and the Kobe’s.
Sometimes she was stomped to death by racism and sexism, executed by hi-tech ignorance while she carried the family in her belly, the community on her head, and the race on her back!
The strong black women is dead! Or is she?
I know she’s not! Pass this on to all the strong black women you love, respect and admire! I just did.
June 24, 2004 at 4:50 pm
Man in Charge
You dont seem to be very clear on this issue. You said:
“Why are gay men pointing at their girlfriends and saying if you were more like this and less like that, then I wouldn’t be having sex with men.”
As far as I know, GAY men dont have a need for girlfriends (in the sexual sense of the word). GAY men dont have sex with women, bisexual men do. There is a BIG difference between a gay man and a bisexual man. Among bisexual men, some are more gay and some are more straight. Straight men have sex with women only. Gay men have sex with men only. Anything else is bisexual to some degree.
About this: “but don’t say that its because your female partner is inadequate, or that you really do want to be honest with your partner but you can’t tell her because of inadequacies on HER part.” Are you sure about that? Lets put it in perspective. If you go to a grocery store and the clerks are rude, the store is not well kept and their prices are too high, will you still shop there if you know there are other stores to shop at? What if you find out that the other store also carries items that arent even available at the bad store? That’s how it is. I can only speak for myself, but when my wife is in a bitchy mood because I told her she couldnt buy a $1200 camera from HSN just because it was “on sale”, I can understand that. I cant understand why she ties our finances to our sex life. I dont understand why she thinks that her vagina is like a “reward” I get because I earned it by buying her stuff. Doesnt that make her a prostitute? My down low buddies just want the sex and nothing else. Men need the release, and we will get it whether you “give” it to us or not. If you try to use sex as a weapon, you will kill nothing but your relationship.
June 18, 2004 at 12:10 pm
ladylike
Where is the personal responsibility? Why are gay men pointing at their girlfriends and saying if you were more like this and less like that, then I wouldn’t be having sex with men. Talk about shirfting the blame here. If a man wants to have sex with another man, go for it, but don’t say that its because your female partner is inadequate, or that you really do want to be honest with your partner but you can’t tell her because of inadequacies on HER part. Women- be they black, white, yellow- are not the ones who hurt or kill gay men (which is very wrong), MEN are. The same sex that you run to for sexual and emotional gratification contains the people who hate you most venomously, yet you lay your spite at the feet of the women. What is wrong with this picture?? Which is what I think is the most unfair part of this whole thing. You blame women for driving you to men and then you blame them for your not telling them this is what you do. Its destructive. So don’t say that you are afraid to lose your girlfriend/wife or whatever if you tell her, because that’s not looking out for her best interests. Its completely selfish, and true love is not selfish.
June 18, 2004 at 8:32 am
concerned4u
The men have asked the same question “would you date someone who has been on the dl” and i would have to say all of the things Just Words wrote would def. make me say yes. You really seem like you are trying to make a change and if you were to find that woman she should be there to hold you down. Temptation is a bitch and as long as everything was out in the open and you made an effort to insure your honesty & sincerity about wanting to make that change, me being the woman i am would be there for you. Not to say it wouldn’t be hard, but life’s not easy & we are supposed to help our brothas & sistas who are doing wrong (not that i’m religious, but it would be another way of helping me have a relationship with a recovering dl man). So good luck to both men Just Words & Man in Charge!
Man in Charge you may want to take some notes from Just Words to help you coming clean with your wife.
June 17, 2004 at 4:02 pm
just words
Man In Charge:
To “just words” – You have issues, man. Im not sure I can offer you any advice because Im not as into this down low thing as you seem to be. Perhaps its because Im married with children? I dont like what I have done, and believe it or not, this board has helped me refrain from doing any of that silly shit and pay more attention to my wife and to the reasons why I went to the down low in the first place. Granted, the bisexuality is probably part of my sexuality,but that doesnt mean that I have to give in to it. I LOVE MY WIFE! I love women in general, and the down low blow jobs arent bad, but do I need them? Probably not. I still have issues with my wife’s matrialistic ways, but maybe we can discuss it. I am still gathering the courage to admit what I have done. Its very difficult.
Brother, if I may, I have already excepted the fact that I have issues. Realizing that I have issues was the best part of the puzzle. It’s like the healing of the woman with an issue of blood, the surprize was not that the women was healed but that she realized that she had a problem and where to go with the problem after seeing physicians that couldn’t help her condition. You see often times we realize that we have issues, but we do not know where to go to attempt to change the situation for the best. In my life, I have realized that I did not get the satisfaction that may brain led me to think I would get out of ‘messing around’ with another guy. Man in Charge, I would often times find myself wondering why I did not get complete satisfaction other than the sensation of the climax when with another guy, and then I began to realize that in my case I was being fooled by my mind. MIC>>>”I love women in general, and the down low blow jobs arent bad, but do I need them?” Bro, I am very understanding of what you are saying, I would be lying if I said that I did not. I agree, the DL BJ is not bad, but for that matter a bad BJ is not really bad, honestly. I remember I would always fool myself into thinking that a BJ was a BJ and now I know that is not true. I think that if we really strategically think about how our minds operate in a particular situation we would understand just how to overcome some of our more troublesome issues. Case in point, I have found myself thinking, “I am going to kill that bastard” when I was crossed by someone that I did not particularly care for. Now my mind initiated the thought about killing the person that got on my nerves, but then rational thinking came into play. After rationally assessing the situation, I realized that I did not have to kill that person to reach an outcome that was satisfactory to me. What I am saying is that we do not have to do everything that our minds tell us to do. Bro, you are right, I was very into this DL thing. What put me ‘very into this DL thing’ was the very first time I tried anything with a guy, that was enough to put anyone very into it. That one action was enough to warp anyones mind. Look at your situation, one disagreement, one bracelet, one kick out of your bedroom into some mans jacuzzi landed you very into this DL thing also (in my opinion). I have issues, but I am not at all confused about what I need to do in order to enjoy my life more completely. I have realized that in my situation I need to remain consistantly prayerful and continue to surpress the idea of sleeping with men. No I do not feel that I am sabotaging myself sexually, but with any disorder you must deny yourself whatever pleasure you think you are gaining from the action. For instance, a person battling weight issues must deny themselves the ammount of food that they once consumed until they are ready to maintain a healthier diet. In closing, I just think that we can do it. Strong, intuitive, intellegent, brothers I feel can overcome any obsticle be it sexual confusion or womanizing. If we persue or desire healthy change in our lives whole heartedly, change will come….
June 16, 2004 at 9:18 am
concerned4u
I think it’s easier to accept 2 women together because women are nurturers. It’s easier to understand because we(society) doesn’t see men as caring, giving, nurturers. Their emotionless and mancho so why would you want that?!?!? And it is crazy because i have women friends coming out left and right about either being bisexual or lesbian. Highly educated, beautiful, femine (compared to the thought all lesbians are butch)women. Hell at times i have to question going over to the other side, because men are just not what they used to be. They’ve just gotten a little too damn big headed and truly don’t know how to treat women. The down side to so many women coming out is that now men expect some type of performance from 2 women, like ALL women are bisexual and it’s truly not that deep.
To just words: I think as long as you are honest with being bisexual you will eventually find that woman that will accept what you have done in the past, as long as it’s IN THE PAST. This woman will be comfortable within her own sexuality.
To man in charge: Good luck with everything & be strong!
June 16, 2004 at 4:42 am
Man in Charge
YES! A whole new subject comes up. What about the bisexual WOMAN? Isnt it strange that most men dont have the same feelings about bisexual women as women have about bisexual men? In fact, MOST men (straight and gay) find the idea of two women getting it on quite erotic. The society has a much more accepting view of female bisexuality, and the behavior can be out in the open, and nobody will care. A bisexual woman never has to be on the “down low” because she never has to fear ridicule or hate or rejection for her behavior. Why is that?
June 15, 2004 at 5:09 pm
Anonymous
I totally understand where you are coming from man in charge…. Whether or not we want to acknowledge or admit it… there are many women out there doing the exact same thing…. simply because either physical or emotional needs are not being met at home. Its easy to receive love from another woman (thats what we do) and sometimes our men are lacking sadly for whatever reasons in that department. This unfortunately is a vicious cycle that can be broken by total open communication between partners. Until that happens there will always be people on the DL…
June 15, 2004 at 5:02 pm
Man in Charge
Loni said:
“I am in a relationship with a man I’ve known and loved for 8 long years and it sickens me to think that maybe this could happen to me…Im only 24 years old and he is 27 years old everytime He & I hear anything about the subject he says it makes him sick to his stomach”
AHAHAHA. Im sorry, Loni, but your man is most probably on the down low. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if he was completely gay. Why do I say that? Because a REAL man doesnt get “sick to his stomach” when he hears about gays or lesbians or much of anything else for that matter. He is too secure in his sexuality and his masculinity for all that drama. I have admitted that I have bisexual experiences (mostly straight), but I am a very masculine man. I have found that men who are gay bashers or are too overly outspoken about gays and homosexuality are the likeliest to be on the down low. All that puffing up is to cover his little “secret”.
Lets get real about this. If you have been with this guy for “8 long years”, then you were 16 when he met you, and he was 19. I can GUARANTEE that he has either tried sex with another man, or will try it soon. He is very insecure. If not another man, then another woman. You see, a man is still basically a boy until he has had to “conquer” a woman. Not in the literal sense, but in the sense that he has to earn her love through his ADULT self. Young men are full of testosterone and curiosity and need variety at that age. You two started out a bit young (what happened to school?) to start your so-called long relationship. You better get ready for a plot twist!
To “just words” – You have issues, man. Im not sure I can offer you any advice because Im not as into this down low thing as you seem to be. Perhaps its because Im married with children? I dont like what I have done, and believe it or not, this board has helped me refrain from doing any of that silly shit and pay more attention to my wife and to the reasons why I went to the down low in the first place. Granted, the bisexuality is probably part of my sexuality,but that doesnt mean that I have to give in to it. I LOVE MY WIFE! I love women in general, and the down low blow jobs arent bad, but do I need them? Probably not. I still have issues with my wife’s matrialistic ways, but maybe we can discuss it. I am still gathering the courage to admit what I have done. Its very difficult.
To the AIDS crew – You people are absolutely right. All people who are having sex with new people whom you arent sure are infected or not need to use condoms.
June 14, 2004 at 3:15 pm
just words
What would you do if I told you I was into it all, I played both sides of the fence. How would you react if I told you that I secretly desired your brother while we dated. What would you do if I told you I had ‘messed around’ with a guy once but really needed your love and support. What if I told you that I was at the alter praying and really trying hard to change my ‘ways’. What if I told you that my Marine Corps ‘buddy’ or my college roomy and I got it on once while we were both drunk. How would you react if you found out that after the club me and my thugged out road dog went home got on the henny and gunga and got freaky with each other. What would be your response if you found out that after I gave my wonderful sermon I drove 30 miles out of town to meet my discreet internet lover. How would you come at me if I told you that during those out of town corp. meetings me and the boss increased my salary in the hotel room. How would you react if you found out that your husband was seducing 18 year old ‘Lil Tony’ from down the street with porn and beer after he had the yard work completed. Finally, how would you feel if you just found out that all the while he wanted you to know, wanted you to help, wanted your advise, wanted your understanding, wanted your trust, wanted your love, wanted your prayers, wanted you to just help him through all the confusion that comes with what may seem like pleasure at the beginning. I have yet to understand the reality of our society. Sometimes I feel that had I been a crack-head I’d get more respect and understanding. I do not think that it is as easy as one may think it is to just stop and say, I am messing around with another guy, but I really love you. If it was that easy I think that this post wouldn’t be needed. As I mentioned in an earlier post I am on the DL, but not really being that I have not been dating or in a relationship in some years now. I am a very honest person and I feel bad about having to lie to anyone and I am not really comfortable with my bisexuality at all although I have practiced in the pass. My faith, and my God’s faithfullness to me will not allow me to try and justify this sexual mentality at all. I have battled within for many years switching back and forth on whether or not I think it is ok. Final conclusion is that no matter how gratifying it my be, sex with the same gender is anatomically incorrect and morally wrong. Some may blame that way of thinking on my being reared in the south, but it is not that at all. I just realized that some things are not ment. Like black-eyed peas mixed in french vanilla or men marrying other men likewise with women, it’s just not ment to be. I look at our nation, more so than that, my black community and see that we are at a time where anything goes and it is getting out of hand. We are saying it is ok to much and it really is not. Simple values are completely out of the window and anything goes and then we are shocked when we are dying early from A.I.D.S. and other diseases related and not related. I for one have realized that we come from a strong, rooted people that understood that faith and God was hand in hand and that if we leaned on the Everlasting we would somehow overcome any, ‘any’ obsticle be it slavery or perversion. I do not believe that my ancestors my beautiful black people overcame by saying, “Well lets let massa beat us one mo’ time foe we ‘cide to leave, maybe it won’t hurt much this time”. No, they new from the first beat down that they needed to get out of hell. I refuse to be a slave to perversion and take a chance on going to hell. I don’t know if there is a heaven or hell, but I am sure I have faith in God. I refuse to blame any of my beautiful black sista’s that I have been blessed with and from…(momma) anymore, regardless of how much they may annoy me or get on my nerves. I refuse to let my mind play tricks on me making me believe that I have to be a weak coward and give into whatever comes to mind, thats were prayer comes in. At the thought of giving head, drop to your knees and pray instead of the other. God is not a selective God, he heard the prayer for the pay increase that we want so bad, what make you think he did not hear the other prayers. If you want to change and you really want it bad, as bad, he will come through if you do not go to him half heartedly. I am just tired of being tricked by the devil, white media, and my mind, I am stronger than that. Bring back the days of yea, and nea when we could plainly see the way. That is as simple as I can get it…God Bless and I am still praying…..
June 11, 2004 at 8:09 pm
behonest
After reading JL King’s book, I agree with him. Men need to be honest and give women a choice. Men need to protect themselves and their love ones. From reading King’s book, there are no certain type of men, they are all different races, economic levels and educational background.
Women need to protect themselves and demand that men use condoms. If a man cares about you, he will do what you ask. We as black people need to be honest, stop judging and name calling. These things will only making others hide their true sexuality which is killing us as a people.
June 8, 2004 at 10:01 am
concerned4u
To Loni i just have to say that name calling is unneccessary. And haven’t you heard of bi-sexuals?!?!? Everything is not so black and white. Like Dawn on said, this is not something “new” and you as a women would never truly know if your man was on the dl anyway. I’m not here to pass judgement on anyone but to participate in discussion as well as learn a thing or two. We as people, especially black people, can be very judgemental of one another. We need to learn to embrace our differences, communicate & LISTEN. Ladies, Sistas, are men are struggling and we need to reach out a helping hand. And brothas it doesn’t make you a weak man to communicate your feelings, if anything it shows that you are strong/brave to even open up.
June 7, 2004 at 7:49 pm
Loni
This Men on the Down Low thing is sick, and sad @ the same time, I am in a relationship with a man I’ve known and loved for 8 long years and it sickens me to think that maybe this could happen to me…Im only 24 years old and he is 27 years old everytime He & I hear anything about the subject he says it makes him sick to his stomach….Lord knows I hope he is honest….To the men on the Down Low wake up your are FAGS..Leave us sista’a alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
June 5, 2004 at 11:57 pm
walking
We need to take responiblity fo our own actions, no matter if the man is straight, bi, dl wear a condom. This board makes it sound like dl men is passing the virus and that its UNPROTECTED SEX agree by both parties, thats just not the case, its a types, hiv is not just a gay disease, it a man made disease.
To the brothers that have desires to be with other bruthas, tell the truth to the ladies, or just leave them alone period, it’s not fair to them to place them at risk, the black women is the mother of the earth.
I think in our backgrounds as bruthas comming out and saying im gay is like commiting social suside, we need to be more compassionate as a people and accept people for who they are and dont form judgements on people. then i think people we be more free to be themselves. as a man we a taught to be tuff, especially as a black man. be strong shugg it off, this is part of our dimelima, trying to stay tufff, i think.
but to be real we need to be honest. its jsut not fair. and to those quotign the Bible, sin is sin no matter if its with woman to woman, man to man, wheter its saying something negative to bring down your fellow brutha chratcher. read the book, and quote is a whole, non marriage sex is a sin, as well, and no where does got say this sin is worse than anthor sin, all sin is equal and we have to account for it all. Bottom line.
But in closing my brutha be real, my sister keep it real cheating is universal, we got woman on the dl and so on. but no matter what wear a condom. NO matter who or what… You never know
love yourself enough to protect yourself.
The bottom line, dl men is nothing new, we just got a man made disease now.
Have a good one.
June 2, 2004 at 4:39 pm
Dawn
Wow…I am so happy to see so many different brothers and sisters talk about this subject. I think that we are starting to overcome the whole stigma of the down low which is plaguing our society. Information is the key. I have read a lot of the different comments, including ‘Man in charge’. My comment is simply this…the down low is not the big issue! That is not the the real problem. It is sooo ironic that this is being talked about like it just starting happening – it didn’t! The truth of the matter is that this is 2004.
In 2004 – People are not honest.
People do look out for self.
People will walk over you to get where they are going.
People will lie to you to make them happier.
People will deceive you to make it easier.
AIDS is out there.
This is our reality. The problem is not the act (that I will save for all the church folk) but the lies. Lies are killing us, deceit is killing us, half-truths are killing us, not having a choice is killing us!! Homosexual sex has been around just as long as prostitution. My point is that people need to stop being scared and face the reality. The reality is the people on the down low like both. The reality is they are being deceitful. I don’t understand why people are sooo appalled? People lie all the time! For instance, if there is a situation you feel scared about, some speak openly about it and others you would have to pull teeth. It is the same case here. Some tell, most don’t. The reality is that the feelings will eat away at your soul and your spirit. The reality is that even though you feel fulfilled momentarily, that is only one small portion of your very significant life. Hey, if you’re straddling the fence trying to pick a side, you never get the best of either side. I think this is a really touchy subject but to all my brothers and sisters…please WAKE UP! Everyone in 2004 should be wearing condoms!!!!!! EVERYONE!! In my eyes, if you are single, you shouldn’t be scared. Because if you are single and having sex, you should definitely be protecting yourself. However, if you are married, mmmm… that is where you have to be really careful to get to know your partner. Don’t rush things…it’s takes time to get to know people and it takes time for truths to be revealed.
May 31, 2004 at 11:38 pm
Trying to understand
Thank you Man in charge for responding to my post. Your comments were very helpful and encouraging. Also, I hope you had fun in Jamaica 🙂
May 28, 2004 at 12:13 pm
just words
Oh, one other thing just incase someone wants to no. The girl that I spoke of in an earlier post was not from the same city as me so it would have made it that much more easy for me to lie to her. We stayed at each others apartments and things were noticed by each of us. Eventually the whole ‘bi or DL’ thing came up after conversations with people that knew me only as an enigma. It wasn’t that I was a mystery, they just did not need to know me being that we were just neighbors. Who I slept with was known of there business because I was not sleeping with them nor was I bringing anyone back to my apartment so that made me an easy target. My girlfriend told me earlier on in or relationship what she had ‘heard’ and I was ready to approach the subject then. “”””BUT”””” to my surprise, she said she did not want to know. That I did not have to explain anything to her. I wasn’t sure if I was going to tell her everything or not but I was willing to approach the issue. She said that I had been one of the best guys she had met thus far and she did not care to know the truth. Not that she did not care whether I was bi or not, but she did not care to know the truth. I guess what I am trying to say is that sometimes you ladies have a misconception about the whole reality to sex, love and sexuality. Love and understanding is the key to any good relationship or marriage not how good the puzzy is. You don’t have to worry about using that to change the man that you love but feel he may be on the ‘DL’. Just do whats right for the relationship and sometimes things work out for the best of them that wait. Oh yeah, I know that love and understanding works because my mother and father were happily married for 27 years, raised 9 children that they had together in a huge southern home that they bought and I am sure that it wasn’t because my mom had good puzzy, I know it was somebody out there that had better. Oh yeah my mother died a happy fulfilled women 2 years ago at the young age of 57.
May 28, 2004 at 11:46 am
just words
Fear less hope more;
Whine less breathe more;
Talk less say more;
Hate less love more;
And all good things are yours
I guess what I am saying is that we all have things in our closets that we don’t necessarily tell anyone right away and that is ok…but to lie is very wrong..
“Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle.
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.”
Who is the fool? Who is the poor player? This life has been repetitive since the beginning of times and we are still fooling ourselves. Is the husband, the boyfriend, the brother, the son wrong for being on the “DL” or should the “flawless lady” just open her eyes and mind and be real. Not be real about the “DL” brother but about the entire situation, choices/decisions, life in general. I am a single 27 year old guy in SE Georgia and I am very attracted to both women and men…I except that.
I am not having sex with anyone, not because I can’t I just choose not to. I am HIV- and not even worried about it, thank God, because I choose to live. I guess what I am trying to say is that with being an adult comes choices and decisions and I choose to live a healthy disease free, worry free life. I am not disease free and worry free because I’m invincible, but because I choose too be safe. Three years ago I had a girlfriend (whom I was very faithful to) that was not faithful to me, I did not know at the start of the relationship, but eventually noticed. I did not get all twisted, start pointing fingers and blow up, I just prepared myself. After ‘I’ tried to make things better without even letting her know about her infidelity I realized that I would have to make some choices. I left. After looking back on the whole ordeal I guess the most important thing that made me react emotionally was the fact that I had never had sex with her withour protection. That makes me smile because I had made a great decision that may have costed me my life.
May 28, 2004 at 9:12 am
concerned4u
Man in charge, great to have you back & i hope your vacation went well, but i do want to get you take on JB’s comments. A lot of it does make since and seems valid, but how do you feel especially-“I do disagree with Man in Charge on one thing…that men don’t see sex as a connection. I think this DL phenomenon is a response to a man needing to connect with someone who will understand and listen in a way that the woman in his life is incapable of doing without harsh judgement and criticism. These DL men want closeness and understanding and they believe they are getting that by expressing themselves in a sexual manner. Men in relationships have needs to. They don’t just want to be seen as cash cows, or as Man in Charge stated several times, they don’t want to feel that they must live up to some standard or else they are going to be deprived of sex.”
Reading men’s opinion of how we see them & how we treat them makes me put my head down in shame. Although i’ve never laughed at a man for crying, i at times do not support them enough emotionally. But i also feel that women are taught to be strong, especially with the absense of a lot of father’s these days, and many times when we get “emotional” over things men take advantage of those emotions so we do build up walls & an intolerance for emotions because we fear getting hurt & we may pass this on to our children because we don’t want them to feel the pain that we felt. But i still feel it’s “lack of communication”. Partners/People are not communicating or we lack the skills to communicate effectively because our wives/husbands should be our best friends. People shouldn’t have to try and find anything outside of their marriage because it/everything you need should be at home. Then you wouldn’t need DL men or other women.
Just my opinion.
May 28, 2004 at 3:08 am
Man in Charge
Sorry ladies (and gentlemen) that I havent been around. I took a trip with my wife and children for a couple of weeks (Jamaica!) for our anniversary. I had a lot to think about during that trip after coming here with a bad attitude and disrespecting some of you lovely ladies here. Again, I apologize for those outbursts. I hope my later posts helped you to see that Im not really that bad of a guy.
This post is mostly to address the questions by “Trying to Understand”. I will try to answer your questions:
“It seems as if I have been coming in contact with many brothers that are on the downlow or bisexual. For some reason, bisexual and downlow men are drawn to me. Although I really like some of these men and would consider dating them if they were only into women, I let them know that I would not feel comfortable being in a romantic relationship with them.”
Perhaps thats your solution. You have decided that you could not feel comfortable being in a romantic relationship with them, and that’s just fine. You already have a solution. Chances are that a man who is openly bisexual or admits to being on the downlow are honest men, but are also more likely to have a high level of that sort of activity. I dont necessarily feel great about being that open about my downlow activities. Perhaps because of the fact that Im married makes me that way. I dont know.
“Many of these men end up being my friends and many have secretly confessed to me that they are attracted to other men. Surprisingly, even though I have expressed my desires to them to be with a man that is totally into women only, many of these men have alluded to the fact that they want to be with me, but they also want me to accept their bisexual tendencies.”
Hard one to answer. If a man is bisexual, he will always have those tendencies. He might, however, be less likely to act on his desires if he knows that you are aware of his attraction to some people of his same sex. Perhaps he will not ever act on his impulses and will feel more relaxed if he knows that you understand his sexuality. After all, straight marriages have to work the same way. Your husband must learn to control his urges to go after other women in the same way. Men in that situation often get release through pornography.
“It is so frustrating for me because many of these guys are very strong, kind, good-looking, and educated. They are good people. However,it is my desire to one day marry a strong, intelligent, good-looking black male who won’t ever engage in sex with another man.”
Im sure he’s out there somewhere!
“In an earlier post you stated that in order to avoid all downlow or bisexual men, one must get a man that is ugly, uneducated,and have a small penis. This statement truly concerned me. Therefore, I have several questions I would like to ask you. First, do you believe that the majority of educated, goodlooking brothers are engaging in downlow behavior?”
Not necessarily. Its just that educated, goodlooking brothers are a sex symbol for many people. For young black women who are seeking security (financial and otherwise), for young WHITE women, who want to marry a strong black man, for gay white men who think that black men have bigger penises, and for other educated, goodlooking brothers who are frustrated with “strong black women” who are bossy and materialistic. The legal climate for the husband in any marriage is dangerous. The woman can take everything. Marriage is a scary thought, especially now.
“Or is this behavior just occuring among a small percentage of educated good-looking brothers? Second, I have heard many men such as author J.L. King say that once a man engages in sex with another man that in most instances he will always go back to it at some point. Do you personally believe that this is true, or do you believe that a man can fall so deeply in love with a woman that he will forever give up other men?”
YES! I believe that a man can fall so deeply in love with a woman that he will forever give up other men. Strangely enough, the catalyst for that kind of bond might actually be her acceptance of the past behavior! In order for a man to be that honest with his woman, he has to gather great courage and risk losing her. If he stll has her, and also has her unbderstanding, he forms the bond with that woman he might have only been able to form with his downlow buddies. Instant love formula. BE CAREFUL. Doing that too early in a relationship might allow him to trick you. If, after say a couple of years, he is still very interested in you (and likewise), try it out and see what happens.
“I know that you said in an earlier post that you may stop one day under the right circumstances, but do you really believe a man can give up these behaviors forever?”
Yes I do. If I was truly satisfied with my relationship with my wife, in an EMOTIONAL way, I would not seek it in a sexual outlet with my downlow buddies. The common factor seems to be a sexually repressed wife, or a bossy domineering black woman with an “attitude” and a taste for material wealth.
“Finally, I know this is a little bit off the subject but do you believe that there are more downlow or bisexual brothers in certain greek organizations than there are others?”
I dont know about that one. Think about this: fraternities are all-male organizations where there is drinking, partying and lots of testosterone. Men (all men)like to horseplay with each other, rough house and play pranks on each other. This behavior has homosexual overtones, but is not usually overtly sexual. In college, lots of experimentation takes place, and a man may try sex with another man ONCE, just to see what its like. I would say that this is more than 80% true, and most men will never admit this encounter. A straight man will have this encounter but end up in a stable heterosexual relationship. Its the men who are curious and NEVER have this encounter who are at risk of having it after getting married (I fall into that category). I dont think it matters what Greek frat houses we are talking about. The behavior occurs when you put men in an all male situation.
“As I said earlier, I am simply trying to get a better understanding of this situation. I am a beautiful, educated, and intelligent sister with a Master’s degree and I am looking for a man who is educated, good-looking,kind and honest who is not and never will be on the downlow. However, when I hear and see that many of my brothers who fit this description are turning to other brothers for love, it is very discouraging. It is also discouraging because many of the brothers that I would seriously consider marrying or being serious about have either confessed to being bisexual or dropped enough hints about being attracted to other brothers for me to figure it out. Others have not openly confessed or dropped hints, but I usually end up having a gut instinct about them being on the downlow. Be honest. Do you believe that there are still many brothers out there that fit my description of Mr. Right?”
Yes. You will have to look very closely, and realize that nobody knows the future. GOOD LUCK!
May 26, 2004 at 12:11 am
JB
This is such a tough subject. There is so much pain and hurt involved on all ends. Yes, women should be respected, wedding vows should be respected and nobody in a relationship should be deceived. But this issue goes so much deeper than just a man’s “selfish need for sex” or his denying that he is a homosexual. It even goes much further than the black community. I know because I’ve seen it.
I know the ladies here are hurt and enraged when they consider this issue, and the things I’m gonna say here might not make you all feel any better. But I say them not to enrage you further, but to try and help you understand the core needs that are at work here. If you read thru all of Man in Charge’s posts, and see them objectively, he clearly demonstrated the feelings within a man that lead to a man seeking his needs from another man. Yes, he could have chosen a woman to help him meet these needs, but that wouldn’t have worked because the needs he feel appear to have been created by women and the changing roles they play in society. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, Man in Charge, I’m just relating what I see and you can feel free to correct me as you see fit.
I probably don’t have room to get into all the issues at play here regarding what makes a man seek out something or other from another man…but the majority of them are changes in our society. I’ll try to touch on a few that I have researched recently. One is the change from an agricultural society to an industrial one. In the early part of the 20th century, as men moved from working with their sons on farms to spending most of their time working away from home, young boys in the middle part of this century faced having little to no male influences for most of their childhood. Fathers became unavailable to a degree unlike any other in history. They were pretty much raised by the person at home…the mothers. And as much as we love a mother and as much as they do their best, a mother is just not capable of teaching a young boy how to be a man. To be successful, the family structure needs both. But only seeing their fathers at night robbed young men in our era of their best role model and predisposed them to lacking a connection with their father and the ability to learn how to connect with other men on a healthy level.
Add to this the emergence of radical feminism in this century, and the pressures on a guy to be a “real man” are multiplied, especially since even women seem to disagree on what a “real man” is. The overall impression a guy gets from radical feminism is that all men are stupid, bad and only crave one thing…sex. Now mind you, the women thinking this are the same women raising young boys into men and this thinking impacts how a man feels about himself as he is growing up. Women say they want someone they can connect with emotionally, but they laugh at a man who cries and tells him he isn’t a “real man,” thus forcing men to feel they need to hide their weakness and their need for fear of being percevied as a failure..something another man who experienced the same thing would be far more sympathetic toward.
There are more influences that play a role here, but the point I’m trying to make is that many men, especially in African American and Latino communities, have been put in a position where they are expected to be men without having had anyone set an example of what that is. And, as you read in Man in Charge’s posts, the role of women in society may have changed, but the demands women place on men have not. A man is expected to provide with out needs, without emotion and without feeling, or else he will be considered weak, and not a real man. Several of the irate posts from women here perfectly illustrate the reactions a man can expect from women when he exposes how he feels. How he exposes them should not be an issue, because men are not taught how to relate their feelings and are discouraged from trying to get them met. The only need they are allowed to pursue is the need for sex and that is what they see women using as a weapon against them,
I do disagree with Man in Charge on one thing…that men don’t see sex as a connection. I think this DL phenomenon is a response to a man needing to connect with someone who will understand and listen in a way that the woman in his life is incapable of doing without harsh judgement and criticism. These DL men want closeness and understanding and they believe they are getting that by expressing themselves in a sexual manner. Men in relationships have needs to. They don’t just want to be seen as cash cows, or as Man in Charge stated several times, they don’t want to feel that they must live up to some standard or else they are going to be deprived of sex.
The Bible can be used to condemn these men. But it should also be noted that the Bible also states how a family needs to function in order for it to work. Today, because of feminism, women cringe at the thought or “obeying” their husband..yet they rally behind the part of the vows that a man must be faithful. Many men in a marriage today don’t feel respected at all by their wives or by women in general. Note how society is horrified at the thought of a battered woman, but laughs and makes jokes about a man having his penis cut off by an angry mate. That sends a message that the pain a man feels does not count and it open for ridicule. Does this excuse unfaithful behavior? No, it surely does not. But it might help to explain it in the case of DL men. For whatever reasons, as much as they love women (and they do, regardless of how many times you call them gay), women have become enemies to them…emotional abusers in a sense. And having lacked any kind of serious bonding with men in their lives, usually fathers, this creates a need in them to feel loved by other men that they are not allowed to discuss with anyone. Not necessarily a sexual love, but an emotional one. It’s just being manifested thru sexual activity because these men believe, as they say women do, that sex will meet this emotional need.
I feel the only way to fix these things if for men and women to take a good look at the way they treat each other and the expectations they place on each other. Women have allowed their roles in society to change, but they have not allowed men the same thing. These factors have created a subculture of men who crave a bond with other men because it’s an innate need that’s has not been met and it’s safer and more comfortable for them to express themselves with another man who feels the same way than trying to figure out how to make a woman happy. And because they are only taught to express themselves sexually, that is how they come to feel they can meet this need with other men.
I’m sure many men feel this way and never turn to other men…the same way many teens might feel lonely, but never turn to premarital sex. But the fact is that society as a whole has failed both men and women. We all want what is best for ourselves, but we never consider how it will hurt husbands, wives and children.
May 22, 2004 at 6:45 am
Trying to understand
I totally agree with all the comments posted stating that people of color need to uplift and support one another, especially our men of color. As a woman of color, I have much pride and respect for myself as well as my fellow brothers and sisters. That is why this topic is so hard for me to understand and digest. I refuse to believe and accept that the majority of our men of color are living a downlow lifestyle. While I know that there is probably a percentage of men of color as well as ALL men who engage in such activities, I refuse to accept this as being the norm. In my previous post, as well as this post, it is not my intention to offend anyone in anyway. I am in no way trying to give the impression that I am giving up hope of finding a totally straight, educated, good-looking, kindhearted man of color who is only into women. I know that they are out there. I believe in our men of color. I love them. I will never give up hope and I know that one day I will find the right one for me. That is why I asked Man in charge for more information on his comments that good-looking educated totally straight men are hard to find. However, any man that is on the downlow or who is bisexual can feel free to respond to my post. It also is not my intention to offend men that are living on the downlow or who are bisexual. I am just trying to educate myself on this topic and understand this trend. Additonally, while I do not agree with or think that it is right for men to be on the downlow or bisexual and be dishonest with the women in their lives, I am in no way trying to judge or put anyone down. I love all our black brothers. I am simply a sister trying to get a better understanding of this lifestyle and find out just how common and widespread it is.
May 21, 2004 at 1:24 pm
De Shawn a.k.a. Concerned One
Hey, what happened to everyone was the topic to deep for all to handle. Well I thinks it’s great
that people can come together to expreaa their personal views. Thank You Ursula, have a nice day and good luck with R.G. (I don’t have to spell it out because you know what R.G. stands for).
May 20, 2004 at 11:54 pm
De Shawn a.k.a. Concerned One
Man in charge have you read my post dated
May 19,2004 at11:22 PM. I would like to know your views, if any,on my comments. I would like for you to understand that you will not remain on the
DownLow and it is not because I say so but because I have faith in all my people of color to rise above anything and everything that hinders their self-empowerment as a people of color. You
are not helpless you have the power to create self-change and I have strong faith that one day you will awake from your deep sleep and refuse to fall back into such brainwashing as certain individuals in society would like to continue to induce into your unconscious mind in an effort to control your conscious mind. I have no unkind words to say about you or any other DL brother because shame and guilt will only serve as tools to keep you bond in secrecy and as I have mentioned before, I believe that deceit is wrong and whatever measures we chose to live by so shall we die by, either through an inner death of self loathing or physical death. I am concerned about the inner effects that your chosen lifestyle
will eventually cost you and the damaging effects that such a lifestyle is having on our people of color. Man of color please reconsider your lifestyle and all possible consequences associated with that lifestyle. I don’t want to see your life explode before your eyes beautiful man of color. I know in my heart that you will find the strength to overcome your lifestyle. Take care my brother of color I am rooting for your awaking. To all of my brothers and sisters of color never lose hope for we are “The Choosen Ones” and if you don’t know what that means it means that we are an elite race and we must not continue to allow others to poison our minds through their brainwashing and continue to seperate our colored family. They quietly sit back and watch us turn against eachother one by one, they know that only through unity can we stand strong. If we play into their games and mistreat eachother than it makes it even easier for them to mistreat us as a colored people, then physically and bruitally attack us and please do not kid yourself into thinking that they are not just sitting back laughing calling people of color ignorant because so many of us are destroying eachother, all they’ll have to do is come and finish us off. I am truly concerned about all of my sisters and brothers of color because they are the thieves who will come in the night and wipe out our entire race while we’ll be to busy fighting eachother,blaming eachother,shaming eachother,cursing eachother, disrespecting eachother, finding fault in eachother, humilating eachother,and turning futhur against eachother. These are the times to build our family of color strong we will lose the war if we continue to behave so weak.We are decendants of high kings and kings but some of us would rather focus on the slavery days when we allowed our selves to be tricked into slavery out of our own greed of receiving something greater than that which we felt we had. Has anyone that you know ever received any restitution for anything they promised us, I know not of one single person. Our history traces back greater than being slaves, we come from a great noble people.Yet certain individuals in society call us monkeys and heathens and what do we do we give the evidence that we accept their labels through our actions. People of color we must regain our strength and stop performing like niggas because being a black race a.k.a. people of color doesn’t make us niggas. The definition of nigga means dumb and uneducated and if we act like niggas than they can easily treat us like niggas and who can we blame besides ourselves. Wakeup! my brothers and sisters of color we can not afford to remain divided, it is vital that we regain our unity and I can’t stress this enough.their plan is to slaughter us like pigs, first amongst eachother than they will deliver the unforseen deadly blow of complete destruction of people of color. Please awake! I await your awakening. Sister and brothers of color I send you my love for I truly love you and so should you. Email me if you feel weak. I will try my best to help you through the rough edges but the final step is up to you.Love and peace. lumom@sbcglobal.net
May 19, 2004 at 11:22 pm
Concerned One
Before I began speaking on this issue I want it to be known that I in no way mean to offend or judge any one at any time. However I am concerned about the decline of our people of color. I am a female of color and never have I ever embarrassed any man of color whether in public or in private.I have never cheated on any man that I have ever dated. This is because I have self respect. I will not accept a lesser self than that which I know I am worthy of. I don’t engage in the arguing game because it does not signify a woman it signifies a lowering of one’s self. I am truly concerned about the lack of unity that has plagued our people of color. How can we repair the
damage to our colored community. I cry for those of us who have been demoralized, victimized, scrutinized and ostrasized into a deep sleep of
“Whatever!”. I am deeply concerned for our people of color. We must deprogram the brainwashing that tells the woman of color that she must play her exspected role of “BITCH” to her man of color. Woman of color I warn you against such practices because you are worth more than this world has to offer you but you must not forget that we must strengthen our man of color if we are to help build him strong. If he has fallen stand beside him and show him his inner strength but if you put him down he will live up to the man you believe him to be. He must know for certain that you are for him in everything that you say and do. This means make your actions match your words or he will tune out to you, and that is what you don’t want to happen.Now, men of color it is imperative that you do the same for your woman of color, why, because we must regain our unity and stop this war that is taking place between us. Men of color who are on the DownLow I am requesting you to search deep within yourself for
answers that live deep within you as to what you feel being on the DownLow has brought into your life. Women we must be aware of and in tune with our men of color. We can’t treat them like a king when it benefits us then treat them like trash when they don’t live up to our exspectations. We can’t throw our men of color away; kick them out the house if they lose their job than let them back in when they get a job, that’s wrong. We have to stand beside our men of color and assure them during the tuff times that they will overcome the obstacless instead of becomming another obstacle the must overcome along with the ones that their already facing.Deception is wrong and there can be no right in doing that which we know is wrong. Men on the DownLow I hope that you find the courage that you need to end the deception because deception brings along with it death in one form or another. Death of one’s self-worth and possibly physical death because I am a firm believer that as we live so shall we die. Take care my brothers and sisters of color I truly love you.
May 18, 2004 at 4:48 am
Trying to Understand
Man in charge
Like many other women on this site, I am a young educated and intelligent black female trying to get a better understanding of the downlow lifestyle. It seems as if I have been coming in contact with many brothers that are on the downlow or bisexual. For some reason, bisexual and downlow men are drawn to me. Although I really like some of these men and would consider dating them if they were only into women, I let them know that I would not feel comfortable being in a romantic relationship with them. Many of these men end up being my friends and many have secretly confessed to me that they are attracted to other men. Surprisingly, even though I have expressed my desires to them to be with a man that is totally into women only, many of these men have alluded to the fact that they want to be with me, but they also want me to accept their bisexual tendencies. It is so frustrating for me because many of these guys are very strong, kind, good-looking, and educated. They are good people. However,it is my desire to one day marry a strong, intelligent, good-looking black male who won’t ever engage in sex with another man. In an earlier post you stated that in order to avoid all downlow or bisexual men, one must get a man that is ugly, uneducated,and have a small penis. This statement truly concerned me. Therefore, I have several questions I would like to ask you. First, do you believe that the majority of educated, goodlooking brothers are engaging in downlow behavior? Or is this behavior just occuring among a small percentage of educated good-looking brothers? Second, I have heard many men such as author J.L. King say that once a man engages in sex with another man that in most instances he will always go back to it at some point. Do you personally believe that this is true, or do you believe that a man can fall so deeply in love with a woman that he will forever give up other men? I know that you said in an earlier post that you may stop one day under the right circumstances, but do you really believe a man can give up these behaviors forever? Finally, I know this is a little bit off the subject but do you believe that there are more downlow or bisexual brothers in certain greek organizations than there are others? As I said earlier, I am simply trying to get a better understanding of this situation. I am a beautiful, educated, and intelligent sister with a Master’s degree and I am looking for a man who is educated, good-looking,kind and honest who is not and never will be on the downlow. However, when I hear and see that many of my brothers who fit this description are turning to other brothers for love, it is very discouraging. It is also discouraging because many of the brothers that I would seriously consider marrying or being serious about have either confessed to being bisexual or dropped enough hints about being attracted to other brothers for me to figure it out. Others have not openly confessed or dropped hints, but I usually end up having a gut instinct about them being on the downlow. Be honest. Do you believe that there are still many brothers out there that fit my description of Mr. Right?
May 13, 2004 at 7:44 pm
offthechain
I must say, I ran across this site, because this is a rising issue in our community…and I’ve learned quite a bit.
man in charge-I honestly think it was noble of you to put yourself out there like that and give details of what’s going on and what factors can possibly lead to being on the ‘down low’. You have honestly opened my eyes more. Granted, we read articles, and books, but hearing it is another matter (rather reading it), and I commend you for putting yourself out there. I’m not here to judge; just here to learn. Sistas, if you disagree with my statement, that’s you, but please do not throw any verbal blows in my direction; I don’t have the time nor inclination for it.
I am friends with a bisexual guy. he’s currently dating a man, and has spoken about living with this man, but flirts with all the ladies in our office space. I’m the only one in our workplace who knows. granted, we have all read the elynn harris novels, articles, and whatnot, but ladies, what are we REALLY prepared to do? I asked my friend, and he told me all types of stories, married men hitting on him in the gym, frat brothers hitting on him, athletes. My point is, ladies YOU DON’T KNOW. Okay, my friend isn’t the obvious “swish, swish” guy. He’s not flamboyant. As a matter of fact, lots of women are attracted to him. What it comes down to is this: it’s a matter of prayer and honesty on both sides. Since down low brothas have the affinity for both men and women, they’re not going to exhibit those qualities that we associate with homosexuality. Like Man In Charge said, yes, you have to sometime go to THE EXTREME to find out what’s what (per your advice to the married woman who was wondering)..but ladies, we also have to BE PREPARED to protect ourselves if we are going to be engaged in sexual activity. So, my question to you ladies: what are YOU prepared to do? How are you PERSONALLY ensuring a clean bill of health for yourself? AND…part two: is it worse for you if you find out that your man is sleeping with another man rather than another woman? He can catch diseases either way.
And though this is totally off the subject, Feel Sorry For You’ are you on line to be a member of AKA? Just curious.
May 7, 2004 at 8:57 am
concerned4u
man in charge, you sound like your wife has a lot more control in this relationship than you do?!?!? As far as honesty, yes you should be honest, but how honest do you want to be i guess is the question. Would she leave you if you said you had an affair (not telling her it was with a man)? Well it looks like you’ve come to a crossroad, because honestly if she would go off over a doll, i can only imagine what she’ll do when you tell her this. You may have to face the fact that 1) you’re going to be living with this lie for a long time & it’s going to eat away at you or 2) you’re getting a divorce when you come clean. And the way you discribe her i really don’t see you telling her it was with another man. It would be an ugly divorce & she’s going to drag your name through the dirt. Maybe suggest a separation right now because you are unhappy and as long as you are in your kids life then just as much as you are now the transition will be easier for them. I’m separated & my son’s father lives in a different state & i won’t lie it is hard, but my son is happier knowing that we get along. Kids sense & understand a lot more than what we think. And as long as you express that it’s not their fault and both you and mommy still love them, they adjust!
good luck!
May 7, 2004 at 2:56 am
Man in Charge
Thanks for the advice, “concerned4u”. Thing is, you ladies have shown me that its the honesty that’s most important. Even if she changes her ways, eventually I will have to come clean and tell her what I have been doing. Just for my conscience to be straight. IU dont think she will understand, and she would leave me. Our children are too young for that.
About that doll, I have been busting up at the thought of her finding it. I could see it now – She comes to my job, with the doll, dressed up un her clothes, and makes a scene in front of my buddies. She might say something like “is THIS what you want? Is THIS the “other woman” I should be worried about?” HAHAHAHA. I would never live it down!
May 6, 2004 at 8:09 am
concerned4u
Bravo on the counselors and they just suggest you tell everything, you don’t have to. But she should def. go to one with you just to talk about the displeasures you are and maybe both of you are feeling/having. Or instead of taking her, you two go and talk it out. In therapy you are building the tools to be able to confront this issue, so use them. Just sit her down and be like i’m unhappy & here’s why without attacking her personally, just state facts. don’t let her interrupt you but let her ask questions at the end or ask her questions. But i am happy to hear that you’ve at least started the process, so good luck.
P.s. if she can spend $4000 on a bracelet, get your doll!
May 5, 2004 at 7:34 pm
Man in Charge
“Because you don’t HAVE to do anything, there are toys for men too. Why not go out and purchase a couple of those, they say the feel like the real thing ”
HAHAHAHAHA. You might be right. Check out this site http://www.realdoll.com for an example! I dont think I will be spending $2000 on a rubber girlfriend anytime soon! What I want to know, is if she automatically demands money on payday.
Yes, I am checking out the marriage counselors. They have said (I saw two) that I should have my wife there too. They think that I should express my displeasure at her activities, but that honesty is the most important thing. They want me to come clean. Yeah, its easy for them to say, but Im not ready for a divorce or losing my home and other things I have worked so hard for. Right now, its just not worth it.
May 5, 2004 at 6:11 pm
feelsorry4u
Gail,
I was at an HIV seminar last week and I asked about this DL thing. I was told to ask a man and most likely he would not tell the truth but just let him know that you are open to talk about sex. As for HIV/AIDS you don’t know who has it becasue some people look just ass healthy as people without it. It’s not possible to know and many people don’t even know their status so the best thing to do is make sure he straps up each and everytime. It’s a beautiful experience to know that you protect yourself and are free of worry!!!!!!!! I love it!!!!!!!! I sleep well at night and enjoy my sex life to the fullest while I’m protecting myself. Always be concerned about you and your health but still enjoy your life. And girl I use protection each and everytime even if it’s twice a day or once a week and I’ve been with my man for 2 1/2 years. He use to get upset but hes gotten use to it now. He doesn’t complain and we also have found really thin, sensitive condoms that he loves. As for oral sex we use flavored and saran wrap!!!!
May 5, 2004 at 10:26 am
concerned4u
Gail-
Stick with the toys for now, i have one or two myself and if you do find yourself in an intimate situation use protection PERIOD.
Man in charge have you checked out those marriage counselors yet? Because you don’t HAVE to do anything, there are toys for men too. Why not go out and purchase a couple of those, they say the feel like the real thing (and speaking from experience) some may be better than the real thing!
May 5, 2004 at 4:27 am
Man in Charge
Hey Gail
“I am so afraid even when I go out to a bar, or a function, I really don’t know if this guy or that guy is “really on the DL” so I’ve decided to just remain abstinent from sex. I have a toy or two hidden away in my closet.”
Be afraid of the guys who might have AIDS, not afraid of men in general. Chances are you will never know if the man you date has ever been with a man. Chances are, if he’s single and on the DL, he wont find getting into a relationship with you appealing. Its the women jump into marriage or force it by having children out of wedlock in order to “anchor” their man who should be afraid. Their man might not have wanted to get married in the first place. Or, he might be looking for marriage in order to cover up the fact that he is on the DL.
Believe me, if I had the right woman, I would never stay on the DL. I only go there when I absolutely HAVE to. I prefer women, but if I need to, I will resort to DL activities. I know its cheating, but my wife has issues she refuses to deal with. Think of it this way: if you used to drink or smoke, and you quit, you are an ex-drinker/smoker. A man who quits being on the DL is an ex-DL man. You can trust him.
How can you protect yourself? Just ask him straight out!(“baby? have you ever had sex with a man?) Do it when you are about to have sex, and see if he uses a condom. If he doesnt, then you need to watch out. You could die from your encounter.
May 1, 2004 at 4:00 pm
Gail
I am a 30-something y.o. female, and I want you to know that this situation scares the Hell outta me. What am I suppose to do??? Start dating women??? NOT! I am so afraid even when I go out to a bar, or a function, I really don’t know if this guy or that guy is “really on the DL” so I’ve decided to just remain abstinent from sex. I have a toy or two hidden away in my closet.
April 30, 2004 at 9:53 am
feelsorry4u
Oh, OK manincharge you seem like a Kappa!!!! Wow do you seem like a Kappa!!!!!!!!!
April 30, 2004 at 4:32 am
Man in Charge
Oh, I see. The sorority thing! I was a Kappa (of course!). So you are college girls? I miss those days.
April 29, 2004 at 8:34 pm
feelsorry4u
fashall: No I’m not a Delta, I didn’t know thats what you were talking about. I’m getting ready to go AKA.
April 29, 2004 at 7:46 pm
fashall
Oh, manincharge, I was just asking was she a Delta.
April 29, 2004 at 3:26 pm
Man in Charge
Forgive me, ladies, but what is a “Diva” in the way you are referring to it as? I know of the singing divas, the opera divas, and “diva” in the sense of somebody like Oprah, Halle, Naomi Campbell, Tyra, etc. What does it mean.
April 28, 2004 at 8:54 am
feelsorry4u
manincharge: Thank you. Because it really hurts when I see men that degrade women in that way. We are your mothers, sisters, wives, and daugthers.
I also apologize for passing judgement because I do that a lot and it is one of my flaws.
I went to an HIV/AIDS seminar yesterday about its take in the black community. DL brothas were discussed and one thing I liked that the speaker said was something i might have mentioned no matter what we need to protect ourselves and the more we beat up on these brothas the more they will stay in denial, undercover and not use protection. So I just urge these type of conversations and even in places like the black church. Someone once told me that their pastor told them that Magic Johnson was healed. Not true he is still HIV positive it’s just undetectable in his body due to the medicine. I want people to talk and try to understand while I also want these DL brothas to control their behaviors and actions and take responsibility for their actions.
Manincharge: I really think that maybe you and your wife should go to marriage counseling because she needs to undrstand her wrongs. She needs to understand that you don’t feel appreciated. And I hope that the next time something happen you control yourself and urges and maybe even enjoy yourself LOL!!!!! I’m being real. Because it is cheating. She needs to know she’s wrong and you need to correct your wrongs. IF not for anything else for the sake of your kids who seat ans observe all of this.
April 28, 2004 at 8:20 am
concerned4u
Well i’m glad yah kissed and made up and we are ALL Divas Fashall!!! And to man in charge, Bravo, that you are truly coming to some understanding in your relationship. I have a question for you, do you think she’s cheating on you? I see some signs that i would question her loyalty to the marriage as well. Have you two even tried marriage counseling? And don’t for one min. fool yourself that your kids don’t see what’s going on, kids are a lot smarter than we think! She’s truly not holding up her end of the marriage either, especially by leaving the kids like that, she’s not single or childless and needs some tough love from you, even if that means you may be kicked out of the house for a min. You truly have to put your foot down and set some boundaries/compromise not give in. And don’t go running to some other person (man or woman) what ever happened to masterbation?!?!?
I would plan a nice, simple vacation for just the two of you and truly sit down and tell her how you feel & what you want out of this marriage & what you are not getting & let her share as well, and truly try to make it work, if not things aren’t going to change, so you have to make a choice. And you can still be a father to your children and raise them in a loving environment!
good luck!
April 28, 2004 at 4:06 am
Man in Charge
I got to thinking about this shit after coming here. Its really NOT fair for me to play on the side (no matter if it is a man or a woman) after I took those vows. Perhaps I am just as guilty of not being the man my wife married “for better or for worse”. She changed, but at some point, so did I. Im in a crunch then. I love my wife very much, and I see her in the faces of my children. But on the other hand, Im one horny mofukka, and sometimes I GOTTA HAVE IT! That seems to be the timne when she hits me with the “Baby? I saw these earrings at the mall today, and I really want to have them in time for [fill in the occasion] next week. If you get them for me, I will make this something you will never forget!”. And I dont really have a problem doing that, but when I find out that they cost over $1000, I cringe. Then the bills come each month, and they aint cheap! I usually give in, but then Im mad because the next day, a new bill comes in, or something unexpected comes up.
I dont prevent her from working, but even though she doesnt work, she manages to hire people to watch the kids while she goes out to the mall with her girlfriends or to the gym. We have married friends who seem to have a different relationship which is more practical. Things seem to go well for about a week, until I come home and find the kids waiting for dinner and she is not home, and there is nobody there. When I ask the kids where she is, they say “Mommy said you would be home in 30 minutes and that you would take us to Chuck E Cheese when you got home!”. It might be nice if she CALLED me to let me know, dont you think? I call her on her cellphone, and she says that she “doesnt want to hear my mouth because her girlfriends can hear us arguing on the phone”, then CLICK.
After she gets back, I want to have some sex, but she says she’s too tired. DAYAMMM! That’s right…I can call my buddy. What other choice do I have? I call myself Man in Charge, but I sure dont feel like Im in charge.
April 27, 2004 at 6:19 pm
fashall
Hijack—Feelsorryforu, you wouldn’t happen to be a “diva” would you? I can usually sense ‘us’
April 27, 2004 at 6:04 pm
fashall
Most def Manincharge, that’s what I’m talking about!
I sincerely came here to learn about the DL and I will admit I may have came with “guns ‘a blazing” I too apologize for that nonsense. I guess my belief on homosexuality comes from the churrch, I can’t even pretend to think I will or want to change on that one. But what I will do is to NEVER profess I know all of anything. We are all learners here, no matter how much or how little american education we have. What I had to realize, in the case of Manincharge is that people are different period. Man’s view of “DLism” maybe completely unlike an unmarried man’s view of the lifestyle choice. We all lie, cheat, steal, whatever it may be, so hey forgiveness is the answer for me. I guess the DL strikes such a chord, because of the soaring new hiv/aids cases hitting so hard on the sisters and the lie. Anything in this world that involves lieing to loved one bothers most people. A person who gets lied to a lot of times are at a vulnerable and understandably naive state of mind that when the truth comes out, they feel so mentally hurt and insignificant. Its betrayal at its worst, ya know? My granny used to say a lie hurts worse than a stick on the head. Your body heals, not so true with a soul.
Man, all people need love and deserve it, you just gotta see for you where it is, how important it is to resist temptations to sometimes keep it, and to allow yourself to be loved without crap from the past ruining it. Damn the money, and the kind of people who live for it, find love and solace in our Leader and whomever he has placed in the world for you.
BTW-Use your “smarts” to handle your home situation. Become not so financially set, if you feel my drift. Your kids will be fine, Kids can live off a burnt bologna sandwich and a nintendo. Remind your wife that wordly possesions can be gone at the drop of a hat, and make it known she should NOT get used to them.
Peace All
April 27, 2004 at 4:18 pm
Man in Charge
OKAY!!! I apologize, aaight?!
Perhaps I get too defensive when surrounded by you women who just want to pick me apart. I will first make my apologies to “feelsorry4u” for calling you a bitch, and saying that you are uneducated. I didnt like the way you were trying to pass judgement on me, and calling me “sick” was just wrong. Do you call certain African tribes “sick” because they include insects like grasshoppers and beetles in their regular diet? Perhaps “different” or “unusual” might be a better term. If you try to understand my views, I will listen to yours.
Next, I apologize to “fashall” for calling her a skank and an i’gnant beotch. I still have a problem with your closed mind. You dont have to agree with or disagree with my views. Just read them and try to understand. Merely shouting out your anger at me doesnt change the behavior or make it go away for all the DL brothas out there still doing the deed. Its like honking at the driver who changed lanes in front of you. The car is ALREADY in front of you, but your hinking or flashing your lights is just serving a purpose of “scolding” the driver. It doesnt really change anything.
If you at least try to keep it civil (even if you disagree), maybe you can learn something from me. It might be how NOT to do something, or perhaps how to do something better. Who knows? It serves no purpose for me to insult you ladies, and it doesnt serve you ladies to diss me either. Truce?
April 27, 2004 at 1:39 pm
feelsorry4u
Thank you Sister (Fashall). Man in charge seems to equate education only with a job and money. Also his values are all material.
Man in Charge: I’m concerned once again about how you really feel about black women. Your comments are so negative and general so do you really think this of all black women who don’t share your opinion:
-You need to shut your Ebonics fat mouth, lose some fucking weight, and clean that stanky pussy, BITCH!
-No, its stupid bitches and low class “niggas” like you who bring the black “race” down.
-Dont worry, cunt. You will NEVER have to worry about having to deal with a successful, educated, good-looking man who might be on the Down Low. -Just make sure your ex-con / rapper / pimp daddy / black “mayann” doesnt have a little prison bitch he left back in the joint.
-stupid skank/ I can see your 2″ long acrylic nails and cheap ass clothes from here. I can hear your rap bullshit and hear your mastery of Ebonics.
I mean so you really feel this way about black women becasue you don’t even know us, have never seen us and have just read our opinions that are diffrent from you but don’t come accross “uneducated”.
You state that an education is:
education is defined as: going to college, staying there for four years and graduating with honors. Then, after the first four years, going another two years for your Graduate Degree and graduating AGAIN with honors. Its not just about going to school, but its about showing the ability to make goals and achieve them. Its about demonstrating your willingness to complete a task, even if it takes years to accomplish. Its about learning the sucjects you are presented with, and demonstrating your comprehension by getting good grades.
I have done all the things you stated with honors and will now be working on a PhD. I have been successful thus far in my carreer and have written and recieved grants for large sums of money. Yet, you call me ignorant. Is this really your definition of education??????? I’ve done all of this but my education also came from in working in my community invoving HIV/AIDS, tutoring, upliftment development on black women as well as black men. I’m still being educated it’s a lifetime experience and some who have never recieved degrees with honors and read, explored, and understood more then those who do.
You seem to fall in love with the women who have compassion for your situation and who agree with you. But you can’t respect other people’s opinion but I can’t expect you to because you don’t respect your own wife and am thinking not even yourself.
Men on the DL choose to be. They were not molested or raped. They choose to do this often times while they have wives or girlfriends so why should we simply except this and understand and action that with will power can be controlled. I don’t sleep with women, animals, children so why can DL men simply take responsibility and control their urges and not become gay ohh excuse me bisexual because they have a fight with their wives and need to stay at a buddy’s house one night.
Maybe if you changed your arrogant materilistic ways you could find a woman who understood when she could not buy a $4000 bracelet.
April 27, 2004 at 10:40 am
fashall
One more thing Man in Charge—
You measure success by all the wrong things, it is honestly no surpise to me you are with the kind of woman you are married to. If you would open your heart and not your wallet or purse
(sorry, just had to go there, he called me a skank earlier) you could find a good woman, who loves you and not your finaces and educational facade. These “ghetto beeetches” as you like to call us with an opinion, may have been the one who treated you like the a king, but you prefered the route of things(degree(s), money, toys(your words), clothes, etc) over thoughts(unconditional love, respect, acceptance, friendship, admiration). Think about it for real.
April 27, 2004 at 10:17 am
fashall
Well ManInCharge that site you referred me to was a bit more than my alleged acrylic nails and cheap clothes wearing ass could comprehend. You just proved my point. You throw out these insults and assumptions, and it makes me wonder how do you really treat your wife or any woman in your life. You sound really verbally abusive or maybe you’re just venting on the message board for lack of initiative to say anything at tha house, don’t know. I think you are waiting for me to tell you how smart, educated, and accomplished I am. No, never that. I don’t “think” I am all those things I know it. You, however, are getting off topic and trying to get personal, but you can’t and never will because you don’t anything about me. I came here to voice opinions, concerns, what have you about the topic. Last I checked, this was a free country and I can say whatever I please. I am not going to stoop to your level with the insults, because by far, any woman here including my self could “go bad” on you really easy. Its no point though. You are set on some real bs feelings about women and it eerily seeps throughout your posts. You need to listen and quit talking so much. Don’t blame your ways on marrying the wrong woman, and please stop with the internal lie. I take it my words and others you have blasted cut deep, they shouldn’t, they’re just opinions. And we all know opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. And you manincharge should know all about assholes, full pun intended. Peace—Fashall
April 27, 2004 at 8:41 am
concerned4u
I have to agree with fashall that you do go straight off on these women about their opinions. You have to know that not everyone is going to agree with your reasons for what you do. I don’t personally agree with them, but i do understand that people are free to make their own choices in life & although those wouldn’t be my choices I can’t/shouldn’t judge you “let those without sin cast the first stone” and i know i’ve done some things in my life that i dare not cast the first stone.
And why can’t you be intelligent & have acrylic nails & listen to rap music? Hey if it makes me want to dance be it rap, reggae, jazz, pop, techno, country, or hell even classical put in on & let it play. And not all rappers are uneducated men/women. Many have degrees and this is just their marketing tool. Most of them haven’t been in gangs, but have lived hard lives no doubt, and some haven’t even done that. Some like P. Diddy & Master P and Will Smith all have a mind for business. As a matter of fact Will got a full ride to MIT in mathematics but he wanted to pursue his acting/rap career. These are just brothas using what they got to get ahead. Oh and lets not forget Russell!
And on the real you need to STOP blaming people for why men go on the dl. It’s a choice and they choose to do this. Someone can’t make you do what you want to do with the exclusion of rape, but that hardly seems the case here. There are other ways to get off, toys to help you get off then going on the dl, if that’s all you are looking for; gratification. And drinking/being drunk your first time doesn’t cut it either because you still continue to do it sober. I’m just personally against the whole cheating thang, people now-a-days are too quick to run off and cheat instead of truly trying to work it out with their mates whether you’re on the dl with men or women or both. That’s what is sad that people aren’t trying anymore, especially in marriages. Hell we don’t even take it seriously anymore with shows like Bachelor & who wants to marry a millionaire. This is sad & we wonder why there are so many divorces & why there is dl at all(because women sleeping with another man behind her husband’s back is still dl)and now our selfish ways are killing us (literally).
and wtih all that said, i’m still crazy for love, and hope that there are men out there who still value a relationship & is willing to put forth the work/effort it takes to get through those tough spots, but i’m still searching. And i hope i would be open enough to date a man that has went down that path with another man, but until i’m placed in that situation i’d hate to give a def. Yes/No answer!!!
April 26, 2004 at 8:20 pm
Man in Charge
I dont give a shit what you think, stupid skank. Why the fuck did you come here if you dont want to hear about the down low? If you came here to try to pass judgement, then you made a mistake, bitch. Bottom line: Im a man, and I can speak about this issue better than any woman here (from a man’s viewpoint). If you dont want to join the discussion, then BOUNCE, bitch!
In case you didnt know it, education is defined as: going to college, staying there for four years and graduating with honors. Then, after the first four years, going another two years for your Graduate Degree and graduating AGAIN with honors. Its not just about going to school, but its about showing the ability to make goals and achieve them. Its about demonstrating your willingness to complete a task, even if it takes years to accomplish. Its about learning the sucjects you are presented with, and demonstrating your comprehension by getting good grades. You BETTER NOT try to front, you stupid scalywag. I can see your 2″ long acrylic nails and cheap ass clothes from here. I can hear your rap bullshit and hear your mastery of Ebonics.
Notice how I dont diss the intelligent ladies here? Its because they are showing some respect, and stepping back to take a look at the issue. Not trying to serve up some bullshit like you are trying to do. Bitches like you are what make up the reasons for the DL behavior in the first fucking place.
“I am black and white like a muthafukka on the whole gay/bisexual trend. I am not budging an inch on that one.”
Good. Take your bullshit opinons over to http://www.ignorantbitch.com and talk to them about it, Okay?
April 26, 2004 at 7:04 pm
fashall
Man in charge, after re-reading some of the posts here you literally go off the deep whenever someone else is against what you say! OT-What is your definition of educated and successful, just out of curiousity. You throw that shit around too much for me. If a person has a different opinion than yourself are they ignorant? Be honest, if this is the way you feel, you cannot be educated yourself. That is a crucial element learned in higher ed my friend. You can speak in the deepest sincerity about what you feel, but shit get used to the fact people are not gonna hear you flapping your jaws and just be in total awe and reverance because are a supposed “expert” in this madness. I read your posts so I could honestly get an idea of what is going on in the life of an average Dl Brotha, but you too damn hostile. Shows your whole insecurity about the issue.
Don’t put yourself in a box for anyone, but don’t lie to yourself either brotha. Only you know tha real deal.
April 26, 2004 at 6:51 pm
fashall
Okaaaaay, I am a fool because I have an opinion? Manincharge, just as you came here and voiced your ‘belief’ on this bs, so can I. Yes, for Fashall(100% SHE btw), I am black and white like a muthafukka on the whole gay/bisexual trend. I am not budging an inch on that one. Just as you feel there is plenty of room in the world for tits and dicks, I don’t. I call it denial, you call it bisexual. Done, I can respect your right to an opinion, even if I think its crap. I tried to go sociopolitical, but I see people can’t always read between the lines. A people of color that have been accepting, yes. A people of color accepting men who like pussy and dick being an “okay” thing, IMO hell no it will never happen.
I don’t speak from a woman that has knowingly dated a man that was on the DL, so maybe I have played tha ‘fool’ as manincharge so eloquently labeled me. Regardless, I stand firm. So…
April 26, 2004 at 5:34 pm
manythoughts
What a great question! I’d like to think I would be open to anyone who’s willing to open his life for scrutiny like that. As a woman who hasn’t dated in awhile, I’m probably naive about things. After all this time I truly just want a loving, passionate, sincere relationship with a man I can cherish and who will cherish me. I sound like a pie in the sky daydreamer, but I cannot shake the chills I get from knowing that I could find that kind of love! Am I crazy?? Man in charge, my heart goes out to you in your search for acceptance and unconditional love. Don’t stop looking. Not all women will try to use you up and take what they can. Look deeper, please, the next time. Go slow. I’m not saying this will guarantee success in love, but what else can you do – give up! That doesn’t sound like you. Maybe what you want might not come in the package you think it should. Male, female, black, white – I know your mind is open, how about your heart!! I hope you won’t dismiss my comments, I want everyone to find happiness. I think I could date a man with a past like yours, if we could have real discussions about what led him there and why he desires something different now. Most people are not interested in sharing their partner. I hope you find what your heart is searching for.
April 26, 2004 at 4:30 pm
Man in Charge
“But i can’t justify cheating while you’re married. It’s such a sacred thing “in my eyes” and it doesn’t seem to me that you’ve truly tried before you started cheating”
Youre right, of course. I dont suppose I tried hard enough to solve the problem before I started cheating. Its not like I set out to cheat! I didnt expect to be thrown out for returning her bracelet. Maybe get yelled at, maybe have to sleep downstairs, but THROWN OUT? Thing is, she was selfish to begin with, and Im the “nice guy”. I may come off as arrogant and having an attitude with certain women, but its just because I have been hurt by certain types, and its just a defense mechanism. Im really a pretty nice guy.
I would be very interested in hearing from a woman who has decided to give a man a chance who she KNOWS for a fact has experimented with another man a few times. Did she marry him anyway? I want to know how many intelligent womwnare open to knowing that much about her man. Most guys do their voluntary experimentation in college or in the armed services. The exception is those criminal types who do it in prison. For the most part, I cant see why a guy could be completely gay after having sex with a woman. Most gay dudes I have met say they have never had sex with a woman.
What do you think? If you werent married, and we met, and I told you I had had sex with a man a few times but I was mostly straight, could you get into a relationship (sexual) with someone like me? Especially if you knew I didnt have AIDS or any sicknesses?
April 26, 2004 at 4:14 pm
missk
Wow, I must say My views on this topic of discussion have changed. You all have given me a whole new outlook on what it is that makes men want to turn to a lifestyle like this. I must say that there have been some valid points made here. Especially man in charge. The actions of his wife and their relationship has caused him to seek comfort someplace else. He choose a man due to the way most females behave when they are the other woman. Im not taking sides or female bashing but I do see situations where men have affairs with other women to escape problems with a current one and it ends up being more stressfull than what he was trying to get away from. I also do agree that we as women need to caiter to the needs of our respected male partners and stop thinking they don’t need us for anything but sex. Sometimes a man likes to be pampered as well as the female, this doesnt make him feminine, it just make him feel treasured. Sometimes a man might have had a rough day at work and want’s a chance to vent, but because society has made it to where a man is weak or soft if he shows his vunerable side, that makes them want to hide that side of themselves and thus far may lead to this type of behavior. I feel in my opinion that men may turn to other man for comfort because they feel that another man might understand them more just like we confide in our girlfriends when we have a crisis.
I’m not saying this is the case with all men or women but I do know women who act and are like man in charge’s wife.
I feel that we as women should do more to keep our men happy besides sex. To me sex doesn’t equal happiness. Little things do help. Every sat. morning I get up and make my boyfriend breakfast in bed. When he comes home from work I ask how his day went instead of the hetic day I might have had. Yes he caiters to my every need as well but I make it my point to caiter to his as well.
I now have a whole new outlook on relationships thanks to man n charge and concerned 4 u.
Thanks.
April 26, 2004 at 4:08 pm
concerned4u
I think you should stay far away from the altar man in charge, next time around! And i don’t agree at all with your “I think that all men are sexual scounderls, and most would be willing to try at least one homosexual experience if given the chance and given the right situation” comment. I’m sure there are some men who would beat you down at the mere thought of that, just like not all women would want to have a lesbian experience if given the chance. I’ve been given the chance more than once & my sister is even a lesbian & the mere thought of it makes me sick. I’m strictly dickly!
And as far as me & you, i would venture to say we’d be cool friends! I treat others as i would want to be treated & i couldn’t honestly say how i would feel if my man told me in his past he had sex with another man?!?!? I mean if he treated me right NOW, should it matter what was in his past?!? I know i’ve done things in my past that i’d NEVER do in a relationship now and now-a-days people are experimenting left & right, but i do believe that there are women out there who would except you for who/what you are. And considering the way you describe yourself you’d def. be my type, and i’m sure some of the other women on this boards type. But i can’t justify cheating while you’re married. It’s such a sacred thing “in my eyes” and it doesn’t seem to me that you’ve truly tried before you started cheating. Through good & bad, sickness & health. And it’s obvious that you & your wife have a some problems. Because sex/sexual gratification is not all you should be living for. I do commend you on taking care of your kids because there are some straight men out there who don’t do that & i honestly think just talking about what you are going through will have an impact on your life, so keep talkin!!!!
April 26, 2004 at 2:56 pm
Man in Charge
THANK GOD FOR WOMEN LIKE YOU, “concerned4u”
You hit it right on the head. For many of us men on the Down Low, looking to other men for sex is merely the path of least resistance. You sound exactly like the woman who I should have found in the beginning. There is another woman who posted on this board, Sharon, who I have the same feelings about. You said this:
“I think man in charge needs love, support, marriage counseling and professional help”
You are probably right about all of those things. I really do love my wife, but I feel like Im married to Peggy Bundy (with a little more class!). My wife was raised as a spoiled “daddy’s girl”. She wants to be treated a certain way, and I can understand that. However, I think our relationship should be more balanced and that we should mave mutual respect for each other. When she got out of control with our money, and bought herself a $4000 bracelet right before tax time a couple of years ago, I realized just how self centered she is. I cancelled her credit cards, and returned the bracelet. I tried to explain to her why the timing was so wrong, but she kicked me out of the house that night! I ended up staying at my friend’s house, and had my first down low experience because of that.
I dont want to continue living the down low. I think that all men are sexual scounderls, and most would be willing to try at least one homosexual experience if given the chance and given the right situation. Being frustrated at not being able to get any from his wife would be one of them. Its a whole lot safer than “the other woman” scenario. It also lets him escape the dangers of an equally spoiled prostitute who will demand payment and blackmail him.
YOUR QUESTION
My question to you man in charge: “is there anything your wife could do that would make you stop your dl ways & what would it be?”
ANSWER
Im not sure she could change it. Her problems are far too deep for her to change tham on her own. I may have the same situation. My DL activities are just an expression of a part of me which has probably been there for a long time. I wouldnt be interested in DL activities if I had the right woman. I enjoy sex with womenbetter than I do with men, and I love being a father to my children. I am generous and sensitive. I dont want to be put down and wrung out by a selfish and demanding woman.
How many women would still be interested in a relationship with a man if she knew that he had ever had sex with a man? Not many, I would guess.If I find her, I will marry her in a heartbeat, and she will never have to worry about me going elsewhere for satisfaction and understanding.
April 26, 2004 at 10:13 am
concerned4u
Feelsorry4u, i have to agree with man in charge, you took it a little too far with the whole denouncing him from our race. He is what what he is and there are more out there like him & you are putting limitations on what “black” people can be and what they are with that type of attitude and those types of comments. I think man in charge needs love, support, marriage counseling and professional help. I hate to say it but he makes very good points about his lifestyle, and why he lies about it. And seeing how we judge & go off on him in this type of arena it only makes me understand that much more about maybe why he is doing this. I mean do we as women need to truly sit back and see how we treat our men, do we do some of the things that is driving this man to other men? I mean being a strong black women we do develop our little attitudes like we don’t “NEED” a man and we can do this on our own. Are we truly loving & appreciating our black men the way they deserve to be loved & appreciated?
My question to you man in charge: “is there anything your wife could do that would make you stop your dl ways & what would it be?”
and good luck to the women who is curious about her man!
April 26, 2004 at 4:05 am
Man in Charge
To the woman who is wondering about her husband being on the down low:
“I suspect my husband is on the DL. I questioned his sexuality, but he denies any sexual attraction or desire for a man. Or trying to get off by a man. I think I know who his lover is, but I have no proof. I think my husband is the one giving the blow jobs? How can I catch him out there? This is being done right under my nose and I want to know without a doubt. How can I know for sure?”
Well, there isnt really a way for you to catch him out there, but there is a way you can ask him or trick him. Here is what you do, but its pretty underhanded:
1.) Tell him that the idea of men having sex turns you on. Get him to talk about a few “what if” scenarios.
2.) WAIT, and do it again maybe a few days later (right after sex is the best time). Present a few ideas for him.
3.) LISTEN to his responses, and decide wether he is speaking from experience. If you know your husband, you will be able to tell what is what.
If that fails, then go to the person who you think is his lover and say that your husband told you about what was going on. Leave it very vague. If you say too much, he will know you are bullshitting him. You see, you will NOT be able to stop the behavior, you will only be able to expose it.
Before you do any of this, you have to decide what you are prepared to do once you find out the truth. Will you leave him? If he is the family breadwinner, or you have a house and substantial net worth, then he will have already taken all precautions to hide his activity, and you will never find out.
Also, please ignore the comments I made to the foolish woman calling herself “feelsorry4u”. GOOD LUCK!
April 26, 2004 at 3:52 am
Man in Charge
You are one stupid ass bitch. Its so obvious that you are TOTALLY uneducated, and Im not at all surprised that you arent in a relationship.
This statement pissed me off:
“Black people like you bring our race down. You have done nothing but assimilated into the white world and are a true capitalist without morals.”
No, its stupid bitches and low class “niggas” like you who bring the black “race” down. There is no “White World”. That’s the secret to success. There is only ONE world, and we all live in it. Apparently, it is more important for you to appeal to “black society” than it is to become part of society as a whole. There is no “Black America”. There is only AMERICA, and you are part of it whether you like it or not. This place is not the place to discuss politics or culture, but even if I went there with you, you simply dont have enough intelligence to understand what I would have to say about it. Money is merely a by product of doing a good job, having a successful business, or making the right financial decisions. It is not a goal within itself. That’s the difference between the stupid “rappers” and “pimp daddy” types and an educated man like myself. They may get millions from making a few rap records, then buy houses and Rolls Royces and so forth, but if they roll up to the Bel Air Country Club in that Rolls, they will still be nothing more than that “nigga” from the ‘hood. They will park their ridiculous vehicle with its “dubs” way in the back with the help. They will be treated just as they should be: uneducated losers who happen to have some money (for now). On the other hand, if that black person is a respected and educated person like Colin Powell, or Condoleeza Rice, or Bryant Gumbel, or even just a black college professor, the valet will park it right next to the other Rollses and Mercedes and Bentleys in front of the Club. They will have learned how to interact with people, they will be refined and articulate. They BELONG there. What is it they say? “You cant make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear”. You need to shut your Ebonics fat mouth, lose some fucking weight, and clean that stanky pussy, BITCH!
I avoid blacks like you who value being black over being American. You will always fail because you are too busy trying to conform to your idea of what “black society” thinks you should be. You are a STUPID BITCH. Look at this shit:
“I wonder is she white because you truly are not a brotha and should be denounced from the black race.”
You cant “denounce” somebody from the black race?! If you are born black, you stay that way no matter WHAT. So not only are you a dumb ass bitch with no education, but you dont get enough sex, and you are a racist as well? Bitch, I feel so sorry for you! About the boyfriend comment, I said “I will have a girlfriend, and possibly a boyfriend too.”. I am a BISEXUAL. That means that I need to have BOTH. I could never be happy with being in a relationship with a man. I just dont like them that much. I will have a girlfriend, and have my other shit on the side. Dont worry, cunt. You will NEVER have to worry about having to deal with a successful, educated, good-looking man who might be on the Down Low. Just make sure your ex-con / rapper / pimp daddy / black “mayann” doesnt have a little prison bitch he left back in the joint. Racism is immoral. Enthnocentric beliefs are counterproductive and create a barrier between the races. GET SOME EDUCATION, BITCH!
April 26, 2004 at 3:31 am
Anonymous
I suspect my husband is on the DL. I questioned his sexuality, but he denies any sexual attraction or desire for a man. Or trying to get off by a man. I think I know who his lover is, but I have no proof. I think my husband is the one giving the blow jobs? How can I catch him out there? This is being done right under my nose and I want to know without a doubt. How can I know for sure?
April 25, 2004 at 8:37 am
feelsorry4u
Man in charge:
You are just as self centered as “this woman” as you called your wife. You are what colleges produce dirty workers people who just worry about themselves and getting money not the black community as a whole or in your case your not even your family.
I enjoy sex and have it on a daily basis when in a healthy relationship. See I know how to control urges and be responsible sexually for the health of myself and my partners. It’s called morals. It’s sad that your “strong black family with two parents” didn’t teach you any. The only thing you seem to value is the dollar.
The fact that you would state that you would possibly have a boyfriend when you divorce your wife gives a different message then what you’ve been saying all along. It must not be just physical and sex.
Black people like you bring our race down. You have done nothing but assimilated into the white world and are a true capitalist without morals. Not even enough morals to not sleep with men outside of your marriage to a women. Not even enough morals to respect your wife. You paint the picture of her being a gold digger. But men like you who have no morals, lustful, arrogant, and self-centered and “educated” (I would argue mis-educated in the words of Carter G. Woodson and Malcom X) always end up with this kind of woman. I wonder is she white because you truly are not a brotha and should be denounced from the black race.
I will be glad when she finds out or simply leaves because she is tired of liveing with as dumbass. This woman should run fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 24, 2004 at 3:56 am
Man in Charge
Hello, “manythoughts”. You brought up some very interesting points, and I will try to address them for you. What’s going on in my life? I suppose Im just growing old just like the rest of us. I started out here with an attitude, because there were only women here stomping on the man living on the DL for all the wrong reasons. One could say that the DL is “to the curb”, and they would be right in a way. The very term “Down Low” implies stealth. There are very real reasons for the behavior.
First, remember that black men, (if they have been raised by strong black parents in a COMPLETE family environment which includes both a mother and father), are taught that they must always try harder, think faster, and be more competitive in order to make it in society. I did exactly that. I finished school with honors, partied a little, and chased plenty of tail (all women). Im sure that I must have always had a little curiousity about having sex with a man, but no more than any other guys I know who are completely straight. I got married before I knew what I was doing. My girlfriend (now my wife) was also raised in a strong black family who urged her to “find a successful man who can give her financial security and children”. I was looking for that sexy, intelligent woman who also loved sex as much as I do.
Lets face it, men need sex more than women. Judging by “feelsorry4u” who said: “I enjoy sex and oral sex at that but I can control my urges and when not in a relationship I can go months and months possibly years without it.”, I can see immediately that no woman like that can possibly speak authoritatively on anything sexual, or anything involving sexual matters. For many women with similar attitudes, having sex is mostly for reproduction, or to placate their men. I am the one who feels sorry for HER.
Back to my situation, I married my girlfriend a little over 6 years ago. Life was great for her before we had our first child, because I was making plenty of money, and I let her buy things without restriction because it seemed to make her happy. After our first child was born, she spent more time at home for a while, but then became concerned about her body and her free time. She hired babysitters and personal trainers, even though I told her that she was beautiful and I loved her the way she was. I became frustrated because she continued to spend money, but she didnt want to stay at home with our daughter. I found the time, even though I work full time.
We were pregnant for the next 8 months, and after our son was born, things changed for the worse. She got very selfish, and even told me that if I ever left her, she would take everything I own. Sorry, but if you havent worked for 15 years to buy a home and build credit and pay bills and buy toys, you cant possibly understand what a threat that is. Yeah, I could get it back, but why give it up in the first place? Women CHANGE. Men do too, but not sexually. Women lose interest as they get older, and that is just a medical fact. Few women over 40 masturbate regularly. Men do it EVERY DAY (or at least three times a week) until about age 55, even if they dont tell you.
How does this figure in to the DL? Ill tell you. You said this: “There is no real reason for you to be creeping. If you want to do what you want, do it. I promise, no one is stopping you. Sometimes people will judge you. Deal with it you cannot do anything about it.”.
I DISAGREE.
Threre IS a reason to be creeping. Its spelled D-I-V-O-R-C-E. Because I am the major income earner, it also spells S-A-C-R-I-F-I-C-E. There is NO way I am going to risk divorce and losing my children to this woman. As time goes on, I see her getting more and more self-centered. Sexually, she holds me at bay. She uses sex to get material things, and she thinks that giving herself to me is payment for something. She thinks she is TRAINING me. Sex is just a physical act, and I need it more than she is willing to give it. I dont want to go to another woman, because there is too much risk there too. Blackmail, pregnancy, having to spend money for it. All that shit is avoided when I get off with my male buddies. A man on the DL will not demand money from another man to keep quiet. He will not ask for diamond earrings or a Lexus in exchange for sex. He just wants sexual release like I do.
Honesty is overrated. If it makes you poor, an outcast and a whipping boy, then its not worth it. After my kids are out of the house and in college, I will leave my wife. Not for another man, but to get out of the CONTRACT that marriage is. I will have a girlfriend, and possibly a boyfriend too. I prefer women, but I want to keep my options open.
Read “fashall” above. He/She is a perfect example of a fool. Someone who is simply not mature or educated enough to understand this issue. I suspect that you are more intelligent. Bisexuality is actually more the norm than is homosexuality. Some bisexuals are more homosexual than heterosexual, and some are more heterosexual than homosexual. The post by “fashall” says that everything is black and white, but we all know that life as a light-skinned black is not the same as life as a dark skinned black. To the White “fashall”, we are all Black with no shades of difference. Understand?
April 23, 2004 at 8:58 pm
manythoughts
WOW is right! I thought I might just see a few interesting comments about the downlow lifestyle, but I feel like I’ve found the great sounding board. Everyone has an opinion, so “man in charge” here’s mine. I wonder, as well as so many others have, what is really going on in your life. I’m a single, educated, hardworking black woman who loves black men. I have been celibate for quite awhile now, but am just back to the dating world. This is some scary stuff. I don’t want to be thought of as pushy or bitchy by a potential mate, but sometimes people argue or nag. Does that give their partner the right to go out and have sex with another person (man or woman)? I know people may do this but that doesn’t make it right anymore than smacking someone when they piss you off is right. Be honest with yourself. Their is no real reason for you to be creeping. If you want to do what you want, do it. I promise, no one is stopping you. Sometimes people will judge you. Deal with it you cannot do anything about it. But your lies are just that, YOURS! Deal with that, tell yourself the truth as well as your wife. I am so scared to run into the type of man you are. If you didn’t want to share everything with your wife, why did you marry her? If you are as young and handsome, successful and educated as you say, surely you could have had any woman/man you desired. Are you telling the truth? I don’t want to offend or anger you with my words. I appreciate honest and sincere dialouge and I am truly not judging you. I know not everyone is honest, but we should always treat others as we want to be treated.
April 23, 2004 at 1:03 pm
feelsorry4u
I agree with concerned4u there is no reasoning to announce or have a coming out of the closet party. But you must be responsible are share your sexual habits and past with your mates. It’s unfair to your mate or people you sleep with because they should be able to see the facts before making the decision, especially in these days and times.
April 23, 2004 at 8:43 am
concerned4u
I’m not sure how much i agree with you fashall. All the gay men i know are black and they have NO problems with being a black successful man and being just as gay as can be. And i think that blacks as a whole are the most accepting people on earth, so i feel these dl men are just cowards and want to use excuses for not being straight up with the people in their lives. And even if they don’t come out to the WORLD they should at least be honest with the women in their lives about their sexuality and practice safe sex. You owe the women that much even if you’re not coming out to anyone. And i do know people who are bisexual , but like i’ve said their partners knew about it, so it should go to show the dl men that there are people/women out there who will love you the way you are. If you’re gay, bisexaul whatever as long as you’re open with those people and give them the choice of being with you are not. There is hope, acceptance, and love but only when there’s honesty on your part.
April 22, 2004 at 10:54 am
fashall
WOW, I am from AR and reading E. Lynn Harris’ books over the years could have never prepared me for the realness of the downlow life. I am a black or white type person. Either you are gay or you’re straight, simple as that. In the case of a dl man you may pretend to like puzzy per se, but you really don’t. The DL is another way for the new century manly gay man to be able to be his ‘manly’ self, yet be gratified by his true desires. It will never be acceptable for a man to be this so-called heavily desired by us ladies educated, strong, handsome, loving black king and also be openly gay. That is the bottom line. Many of these dl men desire to make these quick fukks into relationships of deeper proportions, they will never admit it however. They will constantly justify the actions by making it a sexual void at home or something on that level, but they cannot admit its just a void. What about women like myself , who sucks the literal skin off my man, and loves to do it. If my man were or is on the dl, its not the lack of head that’s sending him to chuck, or brian at night now is it? The afro american society will not have our Bill Cosby’s, our Colin Powells, our Bernie Mac’s, be successful, funny, respected black men that love dick. It will not happen. Its not a coincidence that shows like queer eye for the straight guy are all white casts. Black America is not gonna allow 4 manly-acting, and 1 suspect gay men have a show about helping out a ‘regular’ brotha!! We all know tha straight gay man ain’t gonna have it, they would never get through one show! So back on topic are fruity, sissyfied, effeminate gay men accepted? How in the hell would a good-looking, sports nut, healthy, funny, well-known man even attempt to ‘come clean’?
This is why this crap exists, the level of non-acceptance in our community. Don’t get me wrong, I am very much against homosexuality, but I don’t have the right to judge. If it were up to me a man or woman should be able to be openly gay, that way the straighters would look for other straighters and the gays could look for gays. The whole Bisex thing to me is a cover up, a partial justification to oneself that sends the message that “I may like a little_______(inserts dick or pussy here)every now and then, but I am all_____(insert man or woman)”
Open your eyes, screw society. We all do wrong, but in the end we all must face our creator, so think about it. Is this worth it?
February 2, 2017 at 3:06 pm
DLwifey
I agree with you in that, they really are mostly gay as far as their sex lives are concerned, they only have sex with their wives/gf to keep them around, and they romantically love the women, but sexually desire the men, because they believe that they are not gay, they are straight, but when it comes to loving their wives, they fail.
April 21, 2004 at 4:23 pm
motivator
I am writing a paper on the DL lifestyle and find all my research (which is how I stumbled across this website) very interesting. I have had gay friends all my life. I love them but verbally do not support their lifestyles. They try to convince me they were born that way, but I try to convince them otherwise. With the DL lifestyle and particularly to “Man In Charge” this is a whole ‘notha can of worms. Man In Charge, you are very confident and determined to hold on to the lifestyle you have come to love and that is your choice, but I would like you to consider something else. We are all products of our upbringings to a certain extent and who we become as adults is evidence of that. Ask yourself why you hate independent, opinionated and aggressive women. It seems to me that you would prefer them to be subjective and quiet. Not trying to be psychological or anything but I speak to you as I would my very own friends who are living the life. It seems to me that something has taken place in your life to create these desires. Be it a father you did not get along with or was a bit “soft” (please don’t take that personally) or an aggressive mother or simply experimented sexually, as we all do, and found both to be desirable. I am a recovered addict/alcoholic and participant in what I like to call a non-productive lifestyle (for 13 years now) and have realized that once I understood WHY I did what I did, it was easier for me to face it and stop, altogether. I was also, putting a lot of blame on everything and everybody instead of looking at the choices I was making. I had to take charge and be responsible for my own life and be considerate of how I was treating others, as well. Until then, I believed that I would go to my grave doing the things I did. Understanding is bliss!! I have come to terms with my past and harbor no regrets because it has made me the person I am today, but I am relieved that I came to myself and got it all together before I destroyed myself. Bottom line, I had to learn to love me. My behavior was killing me. I don’t know you, but I do recognize the anger you possess through your responses on this site, for whatever reason. Don’t take that out on others, but most of all, yourself. I have come to know that we are the sum total of the choices and decisions we make for ourselves, most times, no one else is to blame. Do you sometimes regret decisions you’ve made during your lifetime? Look back over your life, look deep inside, get rid of the anger, decide once and for all who you are and once you are satisfied with your decisions, don’t hesitate to let the world know. If you are totally happy and satisfied with who you are, you will have no problem being honest. When we keep secrets, we not only hurt ourselves, but we hurt others, as well. Remember, what goes on in the dark will eventually come out into the open and when we have something going on inside us, it will eat at us until it manifests itself, sometimes knowingly to us, sometimes not, in positive ways and sometimes not. You seem to be a very intelligent man, take it to another level and get rid of the anger and the secrets…..completely. I guarantee you’ll harbor less resentments when you come clean. I understand you tend to lose a lot, but if you take the time to count up the cost……honesty now or later. There’s a way to do everything and I know sometimes you wish you could just come clean and be free. Search your options and make a quality decision to become the “whole” man you were intended to be.
April 21, 2004 at 10:00 am
feelsorry4u
Concerned4u: I would like to say to everyone reading this as well as you. We also can’t let arrogant men like “Man in Charge” fool us. He feels ashamed of what he does because if not it would not be a secret. His arrogance is a cover up for is feeling ashamed and dishonesty. Now he does not like black women or women in general. He seems to have hate forwomen and including his wife so this hate and dislike allows him to do these awful things.
So we must not mistake what his arrogance is there is pain,disgust, and a sick mind and heart behind it. He’s the type of man who has been hurt by women or his mother and feel all women are awful even his own wife.
He knows what he does is wrong and is very ashamed but lust, hate, and cowardness allows him to keep on. So this is why I say men must take control of their lives and women must protect themselves from men like him that basically hate us and hate themselves as well.
April 21, 2004 at 8:44 am
concerned4u
I totally agree with feelsorry4u, girl you hit it right on the head. It’s not just that our men are cheating on us anymore they are literally killing us, and it’s wrong and extremely selfish what they are doing.
But women we do need to start protecting ourselves and putting our health first. I mean look at the attitude on the men on the downlow i.e. “man in charge”. This is just a preview of some of the attitudes dl men have and it’s obvious that he’s not going to tell his wife, so he & men leave us no choice but to use protection to guarantee our health, existance, and existance of our race.
If nothing else this should open up the lines of communication about sex, sexuality, and protection between you and any partners you have or may have. As enjoyable as sex may be it’s not worth my life.
April 21, 2004 at 7:15 am
feelsorry4u
bigdeneen:
First I understand what you are saying but black women too have gotten a bad reputation in society. We have been stereotyped as jazebels, whores, mammy’s, gold diggers, welfare queens, and many other things. Now yes we have been able to asimilate into the white world at a faster and easier rate then black men because we don’t pose a great threat to white and their dominance black men and black families do. Now I do think that black men have it hard. The judicial system, public education, society and its destruction pose many problems for black men. Some things they fall victim to and it is not their faults but some things they just must take responsibility for. Having sex with other men and lying to your partner because she may leave you or it will take away your manhood for people to know is just outright denial and unacceptable.
Black men need to have more self control and control these urges. I enjoy sex and oral sex at that but I can control my urges and when not in a relationship I can go months and months possibly years without it. Now I may be a special case. And of course people will say “men are different” they don’t put emotion into sex. But this is an excuse to allow them to behave this way. They need to learn self control. If you cannot inform your wife, girlfriend, women that you are bisexual because that’s what it is. then you should not be doing it and controling your desires or urges. Until you are able to see if she is ok with this. If she is ok each it sown. But give her a chance. If she was to leave then at least you did the right them and allowed her the choice of being with a bisexual man or protecting herself.
I believe that black men need to take control and understand tht this is yet another thing that is detroying the black family. Not to say that women or white men don’t live on the down low but the stats are showing black women contracting HIV. The stats are showing black straight men who contrat HIV are admitting to sex with other men. The stats are showing gay black men getting HIV at alarming rates we must understand what we are doing to ourselves and what are men are doing to our families and race.
I’ve been with a man for 2 1/2 years but I’m now chosing to use condoms each and everytime we make love. And I will continue maybe even after marriage until I’m sure that he is not putting me at risk and then really when can we be sure. Black women must take responsibility and demand condom use and black men must take control of their actions.
April 21, 2004 at 5:02 am
bigdeneen
I believe so many black men are living on th dl because they really feel that they have no importance in society. If you think about it everything in society pertaining to black and male is negative, prison ,deadbeat daddy, ect. And black women as myself have to to take on these dominant, super independant roles. Cause and effect. I wish more brothers could safely come out of the closet to protect black woman, because we have no idea what we are about to see are far as aids goes. We are about to lose our daughthers, mothers, sisters, and grandmothers to aids in some big numbers and when all these blackwomen start getting sickand dying, the only person thats going to get blamed is guess who? the black man.
April 21, 2004 at 1:55 am
missk
I must make a comment on this subject matter. I find this type of behavior disrespectful and dangerous. In my personal opinion this behavior “living on the down low” is like trying to commit attempted murder that is what is happening. When men go out and call themselves seeking sexual gratification from other men without thinking of the the impact it will have on the health of their “respected female” partners it is downright dangerous.
To not consider themselves bisexual is another matter here also. Anyone who sleeps with people of both sex’s are bisexual. It doesnt matter which department you work in It is still the same store.
Please think of the women who are supposed to be the mothers of your children. If this behavior continues to happen and women keep getting infected with a deadly virus such as HIV/AIDS it will wipe out the reproduction of the entire black race once and for all. It is bad enough that we loose our black young brothers to violence in the streets but to start on taking out our black queens, mothers of the earth,who are we as an african american generation supposed to leave a legacy behind for if there are not any women left to bear children.
Please everyone think before you act.
this is just my personal opinion
April 21, 2004 at 1:46 am
Man in Charge
Another ignorant comment to respond to? To me, a “sissy” is a man who acts like a woman. He has feminine mannerisms, walks and behaves as a woman does. Somebody like Carson on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. If you dont know that character, then think of any “swishy” man you have ever seen. That is a sissy. A masculine man acts like a man, behaves like a man, and is not at all feminine.
I dont think I would have a problem going down on my buddy, but he doesnt want me to. I dont have a strong urge to do it, but I would if he wanted me to. You are still trying to find a chink in my armor, but you wont find it. I am perfectly comfortable doing what I do, and yet I still take care of my wife and kids.
The Down Low is real, and its not going to go away. Do the best you can to try and understand it.
April 20, 2004 at 8:07 pm
feelsorry4u
It’s truly not about control we have respect and love for each other and we teach each other. The nature of our is human no one dominants anyone. And I have a question. How can you not feel these men are sissies or not men when you allow them to give you oral sex. You are not the going done on him. Why???? Because if you did not feel anything was different from him and you, you would also be giving him oral sex. That’s just sad.Be real with yourself.
April 20, 2004 at 4:52 pm
Anonymous
“It seems as if my comments have humbled you or silenced your rude, arrogant attitude. I truly hope so because you need to think deeply about what it is you are doing to yourself and especially your family.”
WRONG. I only toned it down because you arent trying to throw scripture or pass judgement (beyond your lack of understanding). I also dont want people here to get the idea that I hate women because we (women and men) are the most beautiful creatures on earth. There are things a woman gives me that no man could ever give. Children, a soft caress or a passionate kiss. The soft smells and skin, ONLY a woman has those things. Feminine men totally turn me off. When I want to be with a man, I want a masculine man, not a sissy.
You chose a man you could CONTROL. To me, a man who lets a woman control him is not a real man at all. He is either “pussy whipped” or simply submissive. The male is supposed to be dominant. You chose a MORAL man, not an educated one. If you are the one doing the schooling, then your students are mediocre. You are teaching mediocrity. I am highly educated and successful, and I can pretty much write my own ticket. I want what you have: a pliable, controllable companion. I have kids and a wife and Im very happy. Im just here to love you the lowdown on the Down Low. If you want to hear it, then keep coming back.
April 20, 2004 at 4:15 pm
feelsorry4u
I must let you know insecurity is not my issue. I;m in a loving relationship that I’ve been in for 2 1/2 years. I have a woendersul little boy have a good job live by myself pay all my bills, enjoy a good life. I work hard, am a mother and I’m still able to maintain my pursue an higher education. I’m totally independent and secure. Men like you scare me though. This scares me. I’m scared that I may marry a man like you. I would have never chose an arrogant man like but the double life is what scares me.
on the Oprah show they described men on the DL as men in the church, educated, professional men mostly although I know it could be any man this sickens me because you are the men women like me would like. I chose a man who has less education than me but he is not behaving in the manner you are. He seems more like the “educated” one.
All women so not form emotional attachments to men because of sex. Some of us chose our partners wisely and form some type of bond before sex and some of us do enjoy casual sex with no attachments and those of us who are are thinking straight and hopefully all of us one day us protection.
These men you get oral sex from have to get some kind of satisfaction or they are being used and have some type of issues themselves. So ok you say you jerk them off. That was my point unless they are just doing this because they care for you. I’m sure they are getting some type of gratification. And once agian I wish you would get real you are not using condoms with your oral sex. You seem to lustful and wanting the gratification more. Some people do use condoms for oral sex maybe many people but your actions are so perverse and lustful I’m sure you don’t. So get real with yourself, your wife, and your life.
It seems as if my comments have humbled you or silenced your rude, arrogant attitude. I truly hope so because you need to think deeply about what it is you are doing to yourself and especially your family.
April 20, 2004 at 3:54 pm
concerned 4u
I do have to agree with man in charge that not all men equate sex with love, but i disagree with the fact you think all women do. I do not equate love with every man i’ve had sex with & sometimes it is just purely sexual. And unfortunately it seems like you are more concerned about what people will think of you, then doing what is right by telling your wife. I do agree feelsorry4u that man in charge you need help! Because cheating is cheating is cheating whether it’s with a man or a woman & you still took those vows. And eventhough things changed after you got married you should’ve been exploring your sexuality with your wife, spice that up, and if you two together chose to involve someone third party then that’s on yah, but you took that choice out of her hands & continue to do so, but you do blame her for your actions & it was YOUR choice to do what you are currently doing regardless she did not put a gun to your head.
April 20, 2004 at 3:26 pm
Man in Charge
“These men probally have feelings for you. They can’t possibly just enjoy giving a man oral sex and not getting nothing out of the deal. They have to have some kind of feelings for you. and therefore they are in competition with your wife. This is sick once again.”
SO IGNORANT YOU ARE.
Since you know everything, why even read my comments? You know everything, and you have the whole down low thing solved, right? Good for you. I gave you the facts, and you twist them to suit your small little mind. The mind of a manipulative woman is an amazing thing. So predictable, so common. The “feelings” you talk about are purely physical and nothing else. That brings me back to what I have said above: men do not equate sex with love. We dont make emotional ties based on sexual encounters. Men are wired differently from women.
I dont leave them in a lurch either. I might jerk them off or give them a massage, so they get what they want. They are not incompetition for my wife, and they dont want to get in a relationship with me in that way. You are looking at everything through an insecure woman’s eyes, and its too obvious. My advice to you? Forget about relationships for now, and concentrate on school. Become independent so that you can try a few men on and cast them off if you dont like them. When you find the one who matched your idea of “Mr Right”, marry him.
April 20, 2004 at 2:24 pm
feelsorry4u
Yeah, Right!!!! Get real with yourself. Ok maybe you are not having intercorse but you’re using a condom while this man gives you oral sex!!!!!
And these guys are already know your wife this is such a lie. These men have to be gay if they would give oral sex to another man and you are in such denial. Your wife deserves to know the truth. These men probally have feelings for you. They can’t possibly just enjoy giving a man oral sex and not getting nothing out of the deal. They have to have some kind of feelings for you. and therefore they are in competition with your wife. This is sick once again.
April 20, 2004 at 2:02 pm
Man in Charge
“I don’t think most women are mad that the fact their man prefers to be with another man, but it’s more the lying”
Yes, you have a point there. But I dont “prefer” to be with another man at all. I prefer to be with my wife and children. All I need is a little sexual variety every now and then, and ususally with the same couple of guys (not at the same time!). I didnt decide to explore my sexuality until after I was married and found that my wife would use her sexuality as a weapon or as a means to get what she wants. She almost FORCED me into it. I think that most guys would start getting frustrated in that situation too.
I dont want to involve her in my down low activities because there is no place for her in it. I would feel much better if she knew about it, though. I could assure her that I am practicing safe sex, and that there is no intercourse involved. She knows both the guys already. Thing is that she would tell her other friends, and life could be hell for all of us. Bisexuality is not an open lifestyle yet. Too many people dont understand how someone could enjoy sex with both sexes and not be gay. They consider any alternate sexuality as “gay”. They just dont know any better.
I dont want to leave my wife, and I dont want to be in a heavy relationship with a man. My interests are purely physical in that sense.
April 20, 2004 at 1:32 pm
feelsorry4u
Man in Charge-
Also, you hate for black women or women in general is so strong. You may like having sex with women but you have a dislike for them. You must have had a hard childhood or had an awful or difficult relationship with your mother. Get Help!!!!! You are sick and in need of professional health. I’m not in the feild of mental health. My field is public policy and political science but I can tell a sick person when I see one and by listening to your comments I know you need help!!!!
April 20, 2004 at 1:25 pm
feelsorry4u
Man in Charge- I feel so sorry for your wife. She is living with an selfish, arrogant, dumbass man. I know that she has to know these flaws in your personality but she does not know that you are just nasty!!!! How could you think it is ok for your buddies to suck your dick or for you to have sex with them and go home and have sex with your wife. This is just sick!!! You show no remorse and just don’t care about your actions. I’m an educated women just finishing a masters and starting a Phd. program and if educated men think and behave like you give me an uneducated on who loves, respects me, and would not dare think of fucking his friends or getting his dick sucked by a man because he is a man. A man in the sense that he has pride, love for himself, love for his women, and does not just live off of lust and just fuck anyway and anyone. A man who understands that men who choose women should not have sex with men. Very simplistic thoughts and idea simple enough for the “uneducated” as you would say. The person who I see is uneducated is you in morality and humanity.
Get some professional health because I’m sad and ashamed that you are a part of my race, the black race and the human race. Men like you make black men look bad. Real bad. Imagine how your children are going to feel when they find out you fuck your friends. If you have a son he will no longer see a man and if you have a daugther he will think you are so nasty. Get help!!!!!! Quick you nasty asshole.
April 20, 2004 at 9:17 am
concerned4u
I would have to say most of us women are ignorant about Down Low men, i’ll give you that. And contrary to what you may think i do know the difference between homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual. I have a lesbian sister, tons of homosexual male friends, and several bisexual friends. But my bisexual friends are open with their partners about their sexuality, so you sneaking around is just wrong. Why not involve your wife into your alternate life. There are places where couples can go to experiment & since you aren’t leaving her why not express that with her. I don’t think most women are mad that the fact their man prefers to be with another man, but it’s more the lying and before people rush out to get married & have kids with people you should be able to talk to your partner about your feelings, because you didn’t just start feeling this way because of one night drinking with your buddy and it just happened. Deep down you know it was there & so do other men so STOP lying to the women in your life & yourself. If you can’t couldn’t communicate with your partners on these issues before you got married then you shouldn’t have gotten married! Be single do you and be safe. But you are doing you and lying to your poor innocent wife at home, and as unnatural as you swear marriage is, you’re still married. So either be open & honest with her or Leave because that’s just not fair. Just my opinion!
April 19, 2004 at 4:23 pm
Man in Charge
You still dont understand, do you.
“if your on the DL your gay plain and simple. Come on out the closet.”
GAY means that the man doesnt like pussy. He has no attraction to women and may even find sex with them distasteful. He may have even tried sex with a woman but didnt like it. A gay man is a homosexual.
STRAIGHT means that a man only has sex with women, finds any other kind of sex distasteful. He may have experimented with a man at one time in his life, but found that he didnt like it. A straight man likes women and nothing else.
BISEXUAL means that the man likes sex with both men and women. If a bisexual man tried to be gay, he would fail because his desire for pussy would bring him back to center. Same with trying to be straight. He would be living a straight life but he would have secret desires for certain men around him. At one point or another, he would give in.
If you cant accept the fact that there are bisexuals, that is your personal problem. It means that you will NEVER understand the Down Low. Face it – youre ignorant. The fact is that we can get and keep women, and they are none the wiser. We dont all have sex with strange men and spread AIDS. Perhaps the loser prison dudes and ex-cons do, but not the intelligent and successful men who just want a little more variety.
Perhaps there will be more advanced women who will come to understand the down low and it wont be a secret anymore. After all, men already accept bisexuality in women, and I personally find it arousing. I would feel threatened only if another man was involved with my wife. Not another woman. I love my wife very much, and she IS a beautiful woman. But I like to get my dick sucked by a man every now and then.
April 19, 2004 at 1:39 pm
concered 4u
Man in charge-
I think that this would be the first nice comment you have written about your wife “i have a beautiful wife,” but yet it seems like you hold a lot of anger towards her in your other comments because she’s physically changed and the fact she can “take everything you own”. I just question what does it matter if she takes everything, like you said you are an educated, successful man so you can get all of that back, as far as your children you have rights, so why stay? I could care less if you were bisexual, trisexual or homosexual it’s the dishonesty i don’t understand. Granted you have safe sex, but a lot of men don’t and that’s a scarey thought. I know what is said through these comments won’t change what you do with your life, so i just have to say continue to be safe & encourage men on the dl to be safe.
April 19, 2004 at 1:37 pm
Anonymous
Being on the down-low is wrong ;AIDS is hot all over and for DL men to endanger there wives and girlfriends is nasty; have one or the other you cant have both.
April 19, 2004 at 3:53 am
bigdee
Some of your favorite rappers are gay!! look at 50 DL. See down low is like a secret society. Lets be honest, all these brothers coming out of jail. Brothers in prison be popping eachother off on a regular basis. They have wives, girlfriends, and butt buddies. many gay men are some nasty creatures sorry!!! nasty not because your gay, but because the things you will do to men you barely know. if your on the DL your gay plain and simple. Come on out the closet. Spare the many woman and children who will have to suffer from aids because of your secret life. Some Dl men dont want to admit they are gay or bi-sexual because they have a wife or girlfriend. Please negro!!! get a grip. I see you up in the club, men on the down low stick out like sore thumbs. you look so straight, but I can spot you a mile away. Sex is overated, we need to stop focusing on sex so much and focus on sexual responsibility!!! Black men are seeking out love from other black men, because black women need to stop babying them so much. And hold them accountable for the dumb sht they do. We always like to make a woman feel incomplete when she dont have a man. Even a sorry will do these days. This is sad!!
April 19, 2004 at 3:48 am
Man In Charge
“Man in Charge- I don’t know you, and have no right to judge you, but for you to be so cocky about your alternative lifestyle, you will live to regret it. No matter how hard you try to justify your reason for getting sucked off by another man, you are still in my book and others, as a HOMOSEXUAL.And likely you do get your back blew out, but you’re not MAN enough to admit it. Word of advice, change your name from “Man” in charge because obviously, as though you possess a penis, you are not a REAL MAN, and to add fuel to your fire, you seem not to be a BITCH, but an arrogant asshole.”
ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS, BITCH?
Answer me this one question: Do you have a man? Are you in a relationship? Let me guess: HELL NO.
Unlike Sharon and some of the other women posting messages on this board, you sound like a typical ignorant uneducated black woman who can hardy spell and doesnt even have the capacity to understand the psychology of the Down Low phenomena. Men (and women) who like to have sex with women and men are called bisexuals. Wether you want to accept it or not, we are out there, and we are a very large percentage of the population. The problem of spreading AIDS as a result of this behavior is not the behavior itself, but the behavior of some of the individuals who practice it. If your “man” has been in and out of prison, then there is a 90% chance that he has had sex with a man. The other end of the spectrum is the educated and successful man who CHOOSES to explore his sexuality. As I have said in earlier posts, monogamous marriage is an artificial condition and is contrary to human nature. It is UNNATURAL.
Women like you disgust me. You sit there passing judgement, instead of looking into the situation and trying to understand it. Look at what you wrote, you stupid bitch:
“Word of advice, change your name from “Man” in charge because obviously, as though you possess a penis, you are not a REAL MAN, and to add fuel to your fire, you seem not to be a BITCH, but an arrogant asshole.”
Im arrogant because I CAN be. Im a successful, educated man with good looks and good health. I dont see any reason why I shouldnt be happy. I have a beautiful wife, two children, and a balanced sex life. I use condoms, and I dont have a lot of male partners. Funny, my male buddies (who are not gay, but are also on the down low) know all about my wife. If my wife found out about my activities, she could take everything I own. That is the promise of marriage: a life of demands, commitments I dont want to make, and the threat of a costly divorce. I dont see why any man is his right mind would do it. I did it because I was young and horny.
Dont tell me what a “Real Man” is, bitch. You wouldnt know one if you met him. Perhaps you should spend less time on the internet, and more time getting an education. You might find a man that way.
To Sharon and the other intelligent women here, please forgive my nasty comments to this stupid ‘ho.
April 18, 2004 at 1:50 pm
wondering why?????
why do women except their husbands on the DL behavior. is it just low self-esteem, money, or just plain stupid!!! If these women would wise up and take a stand and let someone know who they are;so that others can be on the alret that these brothers do exist. this is just the first step to an on going problem. if only there was a true sign to who these so-called men are. we need to start a web site like the one they have for sex ofenders and as soon as you come to know one of these men, then add them to the list and the city they live in. base on facts alone. not just because……………….
April 18, 2004 at 1:41 pm
Anonymous
why do women except their husbands on the DL behavior. is it low self-esteem, money, or just plain stupid!!! If these women would wise up and take a stand and let someone know who these men are . so that others can be on alret that these brothers do exist. this is just the first step to an on going problem. if only there was a true sign to who these so-called men are. we need to start a web site like the one they have for sex ofenders and as soon as you know one of these mens the add them to the list as well as their city based on facts alone. not just because……………….
April 18, 2004 at 11:29 am
Give Me The Facts....
Life and love bring their share pain as long you live. However, the pains of living can be lesseneed if we are informed to make educated choices. I want to be educated about the DL brother. I do not want to judge him, I only want to live without being sujected the risks that he has choosen to take. Is that wrong? I dated a man for 15 years and share two beautiful children with him and also a lot of heartache. Heartache that includes cheating with another woman who called me to tell me about their relationship, physical and verbal abuse and most of all, the guilt trip that I allowed him to force upon me. Yes, I allowed myself to be treated this way but after years of therapy and prayer I am dealing with me and what I allowed to happen to me. For each Friday night that he insisted we cruise the parking lot of the gay bar looking for the Vietnamese male he-she that I was told that I wanted, I should have said, “No”. For each time that I was told to go into the adult bookstore with him at my side to search for the perfect dildo to use to fuck him, I should have said, “No”. For the many times that he told me that his behaviors were typical of a man who had no sexual inhibitions and that I was narrow-minded and stupid, I should have said, “Fuck you”. For the many times that I was sexually frustrated in our relationship because I received male-female intercourse once every 6 weeks, I should have left. For the times that I threatened to leave because I was not happy and then given an ass whipping for wanting to leave, I should not have been shown any pity. For each time that I allowed him to fuck me naked head after seeing and feeling all that he had done to me, I should be grateful that the Lord saw fit to give me wisdom and spared my life. I was the foolish woman who was given all the signs but blinded by that passion called “love”. Now years later as I enjoy the anger-free sincere platonic friendship of my “baby-daddy”, I know that love is loving yourself first so that you can be around to love your children as nobody elso can.
On behalf of women everywhere (because I know that the down low brother comes in every ethnicities) be blessed, be informed, and be at peace.
Love ya,
In Control of Self
April 18, 2004 at 6:44 am
SCARED27
I JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT THIS IS A VERY SCARY TIME IN THE WORD TODAY. PLEASE BROTHERS ON THE DOWN LOW STOP THIS MADNESS. CONFESS AND LIVE YOUR LIFE OUT RIGHT AND UP STANDING. LIES ONLY BEGET LIES AND PEOPLE ARE DYING. I KNOW YOUR SCARED, BUT KARMA WILL ONLY TURN BACK ON YOU. AND IF THIS CYCLE DOES NOT END WHERE WILL WE BE A NATION. I KNOW THIS ISN’T JUST A “BLACK” THING, BUT WE REALLY NEED TO “FIX” THIS SITUATION AND THE ONLY WAY I SEE IT IS TO START TELLING THE TRUTH TO YOURSELF AND YOUR “LOVED ONES”. USE CONDOMS, I KNOW THIS MAY MAKE YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT YOUR DOING, BUT IT MUST ME DONE IF YOUR HAVING UNPROTECTED SEX WITH YOUR “LOVED ONE” AND NOT ONLY THAT BUT FOR YOUR SAFETY AS WELL. DON’T YOU WANT TO LIVE ANOTHER DAY. THERE ISN’T A CURE FOR AIDS AND THERE ARE OTHER DISEASES AS WELL OUT THERE THAT DON’T HAVE A CURE EITHER. SO PLEASE DOWN LOW BROTHERS PROTECT YOURSELF AND THE LIVES YOU MAY BE ENDANGERING. PLEASE WEAR A CONDOM AT LEAST I BEG OF YOU.
April 17, 2004 at 2:04 pm
Arlene
I am an educated, self sufficient woman who is single and scared to death at what I’m seeing in Black men. Every single man that has asked me out has had this same, disgusting cocky sense of sexual entitlement. It’s killing all of us.
A terrible thing happened today. I lost hope for black men. I just can’t see how these selfish, lying, mysogynistic, hate-filled, animalistic attitudes can be turned around… and it’s not just DL brothers doing it.
These brothers are just too far gone – they will never change. Instead they have the nerve to ask US to change and to ACCEPT unfaithful, risky behaviors. I say that we really should just abandon them altogether and save ourselves.
I’d rather be lonely than dead.
February 2, 2017 at 2:18 pm
DLwifey
I hate to say this but Arlene may be right. These DL men really are undetectable. They don’t ask their gf or wives for anal sex. They act manly. The biggest tip off would be: narcissistic behavior, staring at his self in the mirror, seeming like he is acting, frequently being hypocritical about anything, not contributing his fair share, not interested in sex/rarely wants sex/never eats or touches pussy.
April 16, 2004 at 7:33 pm
Ronke'
Women it is no time for trashing, wise up and let your brain power take charge.
DL men are seeking their pleasures wherever they can find it, you can make choices to save your life.
Think twice about just meeting someone and having any kind of intimate relationship with them..get to know thyself..the life you save may be your own.
April 16, 2004 at 4:53 pm
Anonymous
Either have sex with women or have it with men stop killing and destroying innocent peoples lives. Black men are sad cases and the ones who sleep with other sorry ass men are worse.
April 16, 2004 at 4:52 pm
Anonymous
Gay men and men whop pretend they are not gay are sickening
April 16, 2004 at 4:51 pm
Carrie
To bad men who sleeep with other men are killing off African American women. Women seem to need the feeling of having a man in there life unfortunately we are dying to have them. If I find out my my is having sex with another man then they can have each other. So married or not I am using protection or heck I can just be alone and I dont want another woman either. To bad black men are so trashy these days.
April 14, 2004 at 9:06 pm
Eruditious
I have nothing against homosexual individuals of any gender or race. However, I feel that it is truly disguating that a man would engage in sexual activities with another and then go home to a female partner and have sex with her. Better yet, how could they bear to face their women. My reason for disliking the men on the down low has nothing to do with religious reasons nor being jilted. I believe that if 2 people of the same gender love one another or care for each other in that manner then it is fine. But, when men selfishly endander women’s lives behind some bullshit excuse like “men need this or better oral sex” I disagree and take it as being an excuse for sorry ass, triflin, weak individuals who are afraid to admit that they desire to be with men, because it is SICK. Men on the “down low” in my opinion are not men, because a REAL MAN knows who he is and can be truthful with not only himself, but his woman as well.
To all the individuals living this lifestyle, I’m sure that you can sense my distaste, but, know that it is not out of prejudice, but out of concern for women. There is no cure for “you people” and if it were up to me, ever single one of you would be incarcerated because maybe then you would get whatever perverted desire you have fulfilled, you want have to hear any nagging, and most importantly you would be someone else’s BITCH as you so selfishly treat women.
Man in Charge- I don’t know you, and have no right to judge you, but for you to be so cocky about your alternative lifestyle, you will live to regret it. No matter how hard you try to justify your reason for getting sucked off by another man, you are still in my book and others, as a HOMOSEXUAL.And likely you do get your back blew out, but you’re not MAN enough to admit it. Word of advice, change your name from “Man” in charge because obviously, as though you possess a penis, you are not a REAL MAN, and to add fuel to your fire, you seem not to be a BITCH, but an arrogant asshole.
April 13, 2004 at 8:29 pm
Tony
I am a strong, empowered successful black man who happens to be gay. I have known about he DL man for years. They are (for the most part) absolutely undetectable… They ARE your brothers, uncles, fathers, cousins, coworkers, gang members, thugs etc. They have always eluded the public because we are a people who trust and believe what we see… This is a SAD state of conditioning much like religion (which has become ego based) and many other forms of social-engineering. We as a people need to elevate our minds and realize that truth doesn’t come through our eyes and ears… It comes from the soul, our heart’s essence because everything in this life is nothing but an illusion — even our genders!
Having sad that, I want you all reading this to realize that the DL brothers need compassion and understanding, not scare tactics (based on your religious beliefs); not rejection; not hate; name calling and not the questioning and doubting of his manhood. Same is true for those DL brothers disrespecting our sisters… Don’t you see that these aforementioned ingredients are what created the DL man in the first place? We are talking at each other but not talking to one another. Many DL men would love to be honest to all those around him but look at the likely cost… You ALL know what I am talking about. We are NOT very understanding nor supportive of people’s own truth. We say “be open and honest; tell the truth” and then when we do — we go off attacking and judging our character. Perhaps if our people were more respectful and tolerant of people being their authentic selves (not living a lie) without all the hell, we would not be dealing with this issue. Perhaps more men would be open and honest enough to be forward with their girlfriends and wives about who and what they love. Let’s not forget that our people is probably the most homophobic race on the planet… Universal law shows us time and time again that what we FEAR most, is drawn it to us, not as punishment but more as a mirror to FORCE us to look at ourselves and (hopefully) challenge the fear and dissolve it. Fear (ego based) and ignorance is the enemy here folks and until we realize this, we as a people will continue to (unconsciously) create our own demise.
We are a race of people who is great in resilience, creativity, strength and spirituality but we lack tremendously unity. We can’t afford to be divided by sexuality, religion, gender and economic class. We need to unite under the fact that WE ALL wish to have a life of happiness, peace and fulfillment. The things that determines these elements for you may not be what is required for the next man or woman. Let’s create dialogue in love and compassion and begin to heal.
I would love to share more nitty-gritty thoughts about topic but I will save this for another time.
Thank you for allowing me to share this moment with you.
March 30, 2004 at 7:19 pm
Henrick
If this message comes to you unwelcome, I apologize. As author of the free online enovel “Confessions of a DL Brother”, I am simply sending this mail to individuals and groups who may be interested in reading the book and possibly using it as a tool for discussion.
The book was written in the summer of 2003. It is based on information obtained while conducting a series of interviews with a Kansas City-based, African-American man who is highly sexually active and living the “downlow lifestyle”. I’ve had some positive feedback from other professionals who have perused the book.
This is a free enovel and I encourage you to pass the link on, read it, print it, copy it, and distribute it. Hopefully, it will encourage some of our brothers and sisters to be more conscious of the realities of sexual activity.
A close female friend of mine died of AIDS in 2002. She was infected by her boyfriend in the 1980’s. He was living the downlow lifestyle. She only found this out a few days before his death in 1988. I have seen firsthand the pain and tragedy that can come with a lack of knowledge.
Here is the link to the book. It is in Adobe Acrobat format. The book is about 243 pages. Reviewers have commented that it is a very easy, engaging, and thought provoking read.
http://www.smithjazzart.com/confessions.html
If you read it, feel free to reply and send me some feedback!
Blessings,
March 29, 2004 at 1:35 am
Man in Charge
First Sharon, I must apologize for calling you a bitch. You are very intelligent and you have been trying to keep a cordial atmosphere in this dialogue. You have my sincere apologies.
I took issue with this statement:
“You say that women invented marriage. I disagree. I believe that was God.”
You couldnt be more wrong. God made sure that there were less males because their function is to carry sperm. In all higher animal species (Man included), the male remains fertile throughout his entire life. There are fewer males, and they are genetically predetermined to impregnate as many females as possible throughout their lifetimes. THAT is what God determined, not a manmade ritual performed in a Church under the auspices of religion and morals.
You sound like the kind of woman that I needed to marry in the first place. Intelligent, self-sufficient, passionate. I married a woman whom I fell in LUST with before I fell in love. She was physically attractive, seemed passionate and ready for sex at all times. That was 6 years ago, and at that time I didnt realize that she had so many flaws. She is not the brightest bulb on the string, and she turned out to be very materialistic and demanding. She used to spend an awful amount of money on useless trinkets and jewelry until I took control of our finances. If she was spending her own money, I wouldnt give a shit. I work too hard for our money, and I want to leave something behind for our children.
Giving gifts is one of my favorite things, but when it is a demand, that “gift” becomes ransom. Either buy the fucking earrings, or I dont get none tonight. After two years, we had our first child, and the second a year later. After that, she figured that she had be anchored down and I wasnt going to be able to leave without losing the house, the cars and alimony. She is right to an extent. Enter, the Down Low.
One night, she threw me out of the house because I cancelled her credit cards and returned a $4000 bracelet she bought just before tax time in 2002. She showed me that she cared more about material things than she did about me or our finances. I stayed at a buddy of mine, and we talked and drank some beers. He is divorced, and I never expected what happened next. We were relaxing in his jacuzzi talking about our women, and he suddenly came on to me. I didnt give in right away, but later, I did. Im not sorry. Im not having intercourse with the guy, and Im not in love with him. We remain friends, and he still has his gorlfriends and is as much of a man as he ever was. So am I.
Im not going to admit that I am playing both sides because of legal reasons, nothing else. If she finds out about my down low activities, she can divorce me and take everything I worked so hard for. I dont like lying about it, but I feel I have no choice. I could easily rebuild my life, but to many things would change for me.
I appreciate your comments. If I ever get divorced, I will be looking for a woman like you, and I will probably remain faithful to her and give up my down low activities.
March 28, 2004 at 6:50 am
Sharon
RE: Posted by: Sharon on March 27, 2004
for the benefit of the spelling sensitive. ‘You’re worse than a Rap song,’
March 27, 2004 at 11:40 am
Sharon
To: Ashamed Man, Trapped March 17,2004
You’re not trapped(unless you meant it in the context of being spellbound), you’re there by choice. It sounds as if you are really enjoying the relationship and all the fringes that it comes with. A person who is trapped would not be enjoying the situation. I agree that men also like to be held, and listened to and should get those things. Even if you aren’t getting those things from your spouse, it’s not a valid excuse for what you’re doing. If there is something that you expect from a relationship and aren’t getting, then you should not settle down with that person.
If you really want to end the relationship with the man, then end it. Call his bluff. He has just as much to lose as you do. He is manipulating you. I’ve seen women in this position, but never have I seen a man in this position. If he outs both of you as he has threatened to do, it may be the best for everyone in the long run. The longer you carry on the lie, the higher the stakes and the worse it will be for everyone if your secret is discovered.
March 27, 2004 at 11:22 am
Sharon
To: Man in Charge ref March 24,2004
I read your post(Feb 12th), and understood perfectly. Nowhere in your post did you say ‘I am bisexual’. You dropped clues, not the same. In a later post, which I hadn’t read when I posted, you did say that you were on the ‘Down Low’. But, have you really admitted if you haven’t told the people who have a right to know?
I disagree that monogamous marriage is unnatural. It may be difficult, but not unnatural. It’s true that human beings are born with certain instincts, but what sets us apart from animals is our ability to think and reason. We have the ability to exercise self-control. Maybe the human male just exercises less self-control. You may be surprised to know that not all men are intrigued by bisexual women. There are some who are equally disgusted by female homosexual behavior as they are with male homosexual behavior.
No, I didn’t get the impression that you don’t like pussy. I just wasn’t quite convinced. Any man who really likes pussy, is not going to choose to have his dick sucked by another man if he has a choice to get some. I could mistaken, maybe you’re the first. It’s true the other woman could get pregnant, IF you don’t practice safe sex. All of the scenarios you listed could occur, but have you considered the consequences of your other choice? They don’t seem to be a deterrent.
It may be true that some women equate love with sex, the same is true of some men. And they certainly are not one and the same. You say that women invented marriage. I disagree. I believe that was God. There are benefits for both parties, IF it’s a good marriage. There have been studies to show that married people live longer lives. Just one of the benefits. Many couples get married for the wrong reasons. Marriage is supposed to be a lifelong commitment. Before entering a marriage, you should love the person. Not be in love, but love. That means if he or she gains a few pounds you don’t find a dick or pussy on the side or use derogatory adjectives to describe him or her. Whatever happened to trying to work on your relationship, instead of looking for a quick and easy release?
I’m not materialistic and anything I want I can get for myself, but if you love someone you want them to be happy and for some that means receiving nice gifts. When you love someone, giving is a pleasure. You get a warm feeling when you give from the heart and far exceeds the amount of money you spent. Women don’t have a monopoly on wasting money. Men do the same. When a woman gets her hair done or buys a new pair of shoes, you can see the results. Many men complain when she does something to improve herself but don’t think twice about throwing away a wad at a strip club or buying cases of liquor for a party that she isn’t invited to. If spending is an issue in a relationship, those things should be discussed in a loving manner. You’ll get better results.
I’m a straight woman, and I don’t recall having that kind of intimate contact with any others. In my experience, I’ve never witnessed that kind of interaction either. The kind of contact you are talking about, is definitely of the homosexual kind. That’s not what straight women do. If they hold hands or hug, it’s not sexual. It’s a greeting or expression that you care, it doesn’t go any further. I do agree, that WOMEN can be naïve at times. Truthfully, it’s not being naïve, they are being trustful of someone they care about. He is being deceptive.
You say, ‘if you want a man who will never be on the Down Low, then look for an ugly uneducated man with a small dick’. If that man has character, then he’s a winner. Ugly is subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Looks change over time, the things that should matter are inside. And I have personally seen ‘ugly’ guys get hit on by men and women. You know why? Because they looked past the exterior and saw the beauty inside. Because a man is ‘good-looking’ doesn’t mean he’s more likely to be on the ‘down low’, that has to do with morals and character. And you know from my observation, the ‘educated’ men seem to be more involved or accepting of the ‘DL’ behavior. Makes you wonder if education is such a great thing.
It’s true some women choose prison lovers and ex-cons. I’m not one of them and don’t understand that menatality. That’s the reason they get played. They get played because guys, like yourself, are liars and mislead them. It’s not just ex-cons who are doing it? Some women, do want a man who will provide things for them. The need to be protected and care for is instinctive in women. But some take it too far.
Not sure if this was meant to be a rhetorical question, but I’ll answer anyway. Am I fat? That’s subjective. To a man who likes slim women, then I suppose I am. If you like BBWs, then I’m too small for your taste. I am often labeled as thick, but what other people think of me doesn’t matter. I am happy with myself. I’m pleased and I get plenty of attention. No shortage of suitors. And if he wants the pretty young thang that just smiled at him, go for it! It’s his loss. It could be a gag gift wrapped in beautiful wrapping paper. And if he goes for it, I don’t need him anyway because he isn’t smart enough for me. He just demonstrating his poor decision-making abilities.
There are plenty of women who treat their men like kings. They don’t mess with the remote, let him watch sports, in fact enjoy watching with him, and are slim and trim after all these years, but if he wants to cheat, he is going to do it. It doesn’t matter how perfect she is. It’s all about choices, save the excuses. Nothing the woman does will stop him from doing something he wants to do, if he has no conscious. And that nagging thing? What is nagging anyway? Is it basically, anything she says to him, without him initiating the conversation? If she’s nagging, it means she still cares. When she stops, that’s when you need to worry. ‘If my wife wasn’t so chunky and in a bad mood much of the time, I wouldn’t be getting my dick sucked by my buddies.’ That is the sorriest excuse I’ve ever heard. If you loved her, you wouldn’t make remarks like that about her. Maybe it’s the reason she’s in a bad mood. I really feel sorry for her. It sounds like you DON’T like women, because you repeatedly refer to them as bitches, beotches or what have you and you lie to the woman you claim to love. Something doesn’t add up.
You’re worse than a wrap song, except you don’t tell women to suck your dick.
Your arrogance is reprehensible.
March 24, 2004 at 3:16 am
Man in Charge
Something else I want to say. If you want a man who will never be on the Down Low, then look for an ugly uneducated man with a small dick. He will never be hit on by a gay man, nor will he ever get hit on by many women. Unfortunately, he will probably get bored of you very quickly just as you will get bored with him.
You women like “bad boys”, and you end up with those prison losers and ex-convict types. No wonder you get played! All many of you want is somebnody who will buy you clothes, jewelry, shoes, and drives a nice car. If he has those things, then he’s a target for other women. If he wants to remain faihful to you, then he will release his frustration (from having to pass up all that young slim pussy) in other ways. Are you fat? Then he doesnt find you attractive…sorry. He is looking at that pretty young thang that just smiled at him from the next car over. Are you always complaining? Then he doesnt like it. Do you demand things all the time? Like jewelry and gifts and shit? Then you fucked up. You are costing him too much money.
Dont fuck with the remote, let him watch his sports, dont NAG, and stay fit and trim. If my wife wasnt so chunky and in a bad mood much of the time, I wouldnt be getting my dick sucked by my buddies.
March 23, 2004 at 4:42 pm
Man in Charge
So you read my post, but you didnt understand much of it did you. Nowhere in any of my messages did I ever deny that I am bisexual. That should be obvious from my support of this whole down low thing. There are a few things you need to understand:
Monogamous marriage is UNNATURAL.
The human male is instinctually a polygamous creature.
Men find bisexuality in women to be exciting.
Men find that they can enjoy sex with a man as well as with a woman.
You are wrong if you think that if I like to get my dick sucked by a man that I dont like pussy. I personally dont like to fuck in the ass. Nothing beats a pussy for that. But if I want to do something on the side, going to a woman is STUPID. Why? Ill tell you, bitch. The “other woman” can get pregnant, she will want to tie me down like my woman does, and she will threaten to tell my wife about our affair. She will want money and other bullshit that a man wont ask for.
You bitches equate sex with love, and they arent one and the same. Women invented marriage, men didnt. It only benefits the woman and nobody else. The man LOSES freedom by getting married. He cant follow his natural urges to fuck all the women he can, and he has to waste money on valuless things like jewelry, 300 pairs of shoes, and $300 hair salons and $200 nails. That is BULLSHIT. To a man, a diamond ring is a fucking waste of money. Its nothing but a ROCK. To a woman, that diamond is a status symbol (for what reason, I cant fathom).
Men are finding the same intimate contact between each other that women have enjoyed for centuries. Nobody thinks twice when they see two women holding hands or sharing their emotions. No man I know would fail to get excited at seeing two women going at it. For you naive bitches who feel that “they man” is playing them, TOO FUCKING BAD, BEOTCH!
March 22, 2004 at 1:11 am
Sharon
RE: Man In Charge posted Feb 12, 2004
Judging from the defensive tone I would venture to say that you are one of those men in denial of his sexuality. They rationalize by saying as long as they aren’t getting stuck or sucking anything then they aren’t gay or bisexual. If you’re in this category, you are lying to yourself. How can you be truthful to anyone else when lie to yourself? Sorry, Man In Charge, ANY intimate contact with an individual of the same sex for the purpose of sexual gratification is homosexual behavior, it doesn’t matter who’s doing the sucking or sticking or if you’re ‘just having fun’ . You’re lying to yourself if you think otherwise. Since you seem to like puzzy now and then, that would make you bisexual. To call women who are the victims of this deviant behavior ‘beoatches’ is a bit simplistic. They aren’t jilted, but deceived. What’s next, blame a blind man because he can’t see? Is the man(if you can call him a man) excused from all responsibility? The only thing the woman was guilty of was trusting someone who she loved and thought loved her. If a man doesn’t like puzzy, why pretend? Do your thing and don’t make excuses. I can agree with one thing you said, because a man
‘likes to fool around with other men occasionally’ doesn’t mean he’s a faggot. You’re right because a ‘faggot’ keeps it real. He knows what he likes and doesn’t pretend to be something else. Maybe a different adjective would be more appropriate, how about a switch hitter? I think that most people have always known that there are obvious differences in the way men and women function. Women didn’t ‘come up with terms such as “cheating” and having “affairs”. These words are part of the English vocabulary. I’m sure you know that they do appear in the dictionary. It’s not something they just made up. You may be shocked to know that some men,REAL MEN, do fall in love,REAL LOVE, marry and remain faithful. Maybe men aren’t ‘wired to be monogamous’, but they can surely try to do the right thing. None of us are perfect and all we can do is try. As you say, there are women who use their bodies as weapons. It’s not right, but does that justify a man creeping around with another man, especially since he passes himself off as heterosexual to the woman? A straight many would not go there. He may be tempted to be with another woman, but a man, NO WAY. Speaking of primates, how many of those males are sneaking around fuuking and sucking each other? You say, ‘we could get a buddy….and get each other off when ever we want’. Or as a straight man would do, you could get another woman, but you seem to prefer a man. Again supporting the FACTS, that you’re bisexual. You’re in serious denial, if you think otherwise. You say you love your wife and kids, again you’re confused. You don’t know what love is. You don’t deliberately do things to hurt people you love. If she found out about your activities, I’m sure she would be hurt. And you go on to say that women who’ve contracted AIDS from these selfish men ‘should have been sharper to spot THAT first’. No, he should have been man enough to tell her the truth first. In a monogamous relationship like marriage(at least some) there is a measure of trust. If the couple decided that they wouldn’t use condoms, there shouldn’t be any problems. Except if you are involved with a liar, like these men. “Only a man can give a good blowjob”, more justification. It seems obvious that you enjoy being with men. There are plenty of black women who will and do perform oral sex. You say ‘he won’t go without, he will get it elsewhere. That’s probably true, but a straight man will get it from a female. This is really poor justification. Just can’t bring yourself to admit that you are a bisexual. Sounds like you need to come to terms with your sexuality. You shouldn’t go around attacking people who are in situations because of someone else’s behavior. That’s just as wrong as taking it up the ass.
March 18, 2004 at 10:40 pm
Man in Charge
“What makes them think they can have both a wife and a man at the same time.”
Uh, because we do it and you cant see that we do it. You are too busy spending our money, complaining about every little thing, and gossiping with your girlfriends. Men are from Earth, Women are from Venus, beeeeeeattch!
March 18, 2004 at 4:22 pm
Soexme
I think DL brothers are disgusting, cowardly SOBs. What makes them think they can have both a wife and a man at the same time. For the DL brothers that broke it down, thanks for in the information and to the sistas who said we women see the signs and choose to ignore just to say we got a man sounds correct to me. We need to wake up ladies, we could be dead and the DL will still be sneaking around destroying some body elses life.
DL brothers sit down and chat with God. He will help you change your sick ways.
Soexme
March 18, 2004 at 12:26 am
Man in Charge
First of all, to the sistas who were trying to use the Bible to invoke fear and loathing: SHAME ON YOU. That same book says the following:
“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” 1 Corinthians 14:34-37
Dont try that with me. The Book was written 200 years ago, and is not even a single book, but a collection of books written by MEN. Also, I have never been in jail or even arrested, not even for a traffic ticket. I am college educated and have a graduate degree. I am also on the “Down Low” and have a wife and two children. I practice safe sex and use condoms. The broths who went on about being 100% heterosexual might have problems every time he comes across another man he might find attractive, thinking that he’s having a “gay moment”. The truth is that beauty can be seen in both sexes, BY both sexes.
I dont have a lot of male partners, just a couple of buddies whom I watch sports with, drink a few beers and occasionally get it on with. No emotional attachments there, purely a physical thing which prevents me from seeking out other women to fool around with. I love my wife and children very much, but I cant deal with the games my lady plays when she is in PMS or when she’s mad at me. I refuse to let her use her sex as a weapon.
Being on the down low is a sign of intelligence. It shows that given a choice based on logic, there is nothing wrong with a healthy, SAFE sexual outlet with a female or a male. I cant tell you how many of my less happy friends go with me to strip bars and get lap dances, only to leave frustrated and horny because their wives are in their period, or will not perform certain sexual acts like oral sex. They might find themselves divorced and unhappy 5 years from now, while the stabilizing effect my solution has had on my marriage will allow me to coast through the rough parts. I wish my wife would try it with a female friend while Im at work or something, she might be less of a beotch!
March 17, 2004 at 10:40 am
Ashamed Man, Trapped
Wow! Thats all I can say to this, is wow! First I apologize to all the hurting women , on behalf of all the DL brothas like myself. I am currently involved with a married man 14 years my senior and we both are married men. This relationship was supposed to be a safe outlet to satisfy our needs. Now, I have become trapped in this thing, he says if I leave him he would leave his family, out us both nad all that craziness. I respect his family so much due to the fact that we eat at one anothers home, our kids play on the same sports team, he has strategically made our families coincide. I said that to say this, most of the time when a brotha gets down on the DL, its not a longterm intention, ,somehow it then becomes a priority…and like myself your so tied up you can’t get out. To women, if you would do less talkin, and more listening to your man this could help him overcome. Men also like to be held, and affection recievers, but women tend to be more needy in that area, the man’s need go undone or he is so afraid to ask for that. I wish my wife could give me what, this man gives me. And no it’s not Dick, he calls me all day tellin me how sexy I am, he always wants me sexually, he sends emails, discreet gifts, massages, manicures…he is into me deep…he actually takes better care of me than she does. He pays some of our bills unknowingly to her. He is a great support emotionally, financially and physically. And guess what we never argue. I mean it’s hard to walk away from this.
I’ve fallen and I can’t get up!
March 15, 2004 at 7:27 pm
T
Hi,
First may I commend each of you for taking the time to address such an important topic. It was AFTER reading each of the previous posts did I decide to further research this “DL phenomenon.” Below is a link to a fantastic article addressing all of the aforementioned points as well as a very interesting suggestion in helping each of us to understand, cope, and educate our world.
http://content.gay.com/channels/news/boykin/boykin_36.html
I hope you guys take the time to read the article.
Peace & Blessings,
T.
March 9, 2004 at 7:37 pm
NITA
IT DOES NOES MATTER IF THE MAN WAS IN JAIL OR NOT, HE DOES NOT HAVE TO HAVE SEX WITH A MAN ONCE HE IS A FREE MAN. THAT’S JUST AN EXCUSE. MEN WHO ARE ON THE DOWNLOW ARE COWARDS. THEY NEED TO DO WHAT THEY DO AND LEAVE US WOMEN ALONE. I HAVE BEEN IN A RELATIONSHIP FOR FOUR YEARS AND MY MAN HAS ASKED ME IF HE COULD HAVE ANAL SEX WITH ME. OF COURSE I SAID NO. I TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS SOMETHING GAY MEN DID AND HE RESPECTS MY WISHES. LADIES BE CAREFUL AND TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS. IF YOU SEE SIGNS, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. AIDS IS NOT A JOKE.
March 1, 2004 at 10:10 pm
Ali
NINE TIMES out of TEN IN ONE confined SETTING, if an man has been to prison or jail, than they probably have had a homosexual relationship. Many like to think of it as DownLow. (?)
Many African Amercian men in jail and prison doing a short stint for child support all the way up to a life sentence are on the Down-Low. I HAVE HEARD Many identify with each other as having been ran up in, or for being in a low down relationship by:
wearing 1 or 2 earrings and or by
allowing their pants to sag.
But white and Hispanic men and a low percentage of incarcerated asians would fall into the catagory of a secretly practicng homosexuality as well.
And just like the Brother who is not in charge, they are extremely hostile and defensive about their homosexual relationships. Many allow other men to braid their hair and have sex with each other and than go up to visit their families, wives, girlfriends and go downlow by pretending to be heterosexual. Pretending to had not received sex from the inmate across the room. Unfortunately age is not a barrier. It makes me wonder, “Why the obesseion or such an attraction for the butt when their are other parts to a woman?” This is why African American woman should date interracially, due to the risk of contratcing AIDS and HIV.
Why?
Because hiding as a Downlows main rule is the deceit, dishonesty, defensive, manipulation and to be in control or to be in charge even if you are unqualified to be. So anything contray to lieing is to admit to being gay. And If a Dowlow is to admit to being downlow, than they would be admitting to being Homosexual and for some that is the main dance of deceit with Oneself. This is my take on it.
What do you Downlow men think?
What do the (founders)incarcerated males/ Lifers think? Allot say the black young male is eager to conform.
February 13, 2004 at 5:57 pm
Mally Mal
Hey Ladies,
Off the Bat, I’m 100% heterosexual and terribly sickend by these so called “Thug rough necks” and their secretive life styles.
This is my theory. I believe this life style is attributed to incarceration, years in and out of the joint. You see ladies, in jail someone has got to be the bitch (so to speak). What I’m saying is, if your significant other is in and out of jail,he is a product of institutional conditioning. A “Jail house mentality/lifestyle” from the pen to the streets.
It seems as if their is an unwritten code about this “downlow phenomenon”; meaning the act of straight acting and their covert lifestyles are permmited, but tabu to speak of it.
I’ve been hit on once or twice in my life. Rest assured ladies, A rusty ass, muscular,tupac acting dude can’t do shit for me!!!!!! Ain’t nothing more precious than the touch of a sexy ass sista ,YA DIG? I’m not a gay basher, but I immediatley put their ass’s in check!!!!!
I’m a strong educated Brotha from the “D”, who loves sincere, respectful,and kind hearted women. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!! A bit of advice, and then I’m out. If you got a man that’s in and out the joint, “LOOK DEEP BEFORE YOU LEAP”.
Keep ya head up ladies,
Mally Mal
February 13, 2004 at 2:24 pm
Deborah
To the young ladies – just hold on – God’s got a blessing – and your name is on it!
I lost my husband to the fight against AIDS and I know that it is the young African American women who are on the rise to the spread of the HIV infection and not all but a lot of it has to do with the DL. You have a right to be afraid because God didn’t give us the spirit of fear, but enemy does. Stay focused,
2Chron 20:12, O our God, wilt thou not judge them? for we have no might against this great company that cometh against us; neither know we what to do: but our eyes [are] upon thee.
Keep your eyes on Jesus!
February 13, 2004 at 1:42 pm
Deborah
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore, your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
To the man who is NOT in charge, let me add to the previous post.
The Word of God says in Leviticus 18:22, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” Leviticus 20:13 says, “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Don’t you realize that the enemy is killing our young men and women through the blood (AIDS). This is National Black HIV/AIDS Information and Eudcation week. Get educated and informed.
God says in Acts 3:19, Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
God loves you my brother – repent and turn from your wicked ways. For God says, if my people who are called by my name shoud humble themselves and pray, seek my face, and turn from their wicked way, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sins and heal their land.
We need a healing here in America.
Don’t respond with hate, For God so loved the world (and that means you) that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
Debbie
February 13, 2004 at 12:38 pm
Angela
To The Man In Charged
I know you know that you are just fooling yourself and you are being deceived by Satan. You are definately not in charged of your life. You are a pitiful excuse for a man. God ordained marriage. And everything that God made was and is good. He also created Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve and Eve. You need Jesus.
And the men who turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another— men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrongdoing and going astray, which was their fitting retribution. (Romans 1:27) Amp.
Don’t you dare think that you are getting away with anything. Don’t you dare think that the Almight God who created you will let your filthy deeds go unpunished. You will reap what you sow. And if you and others like yourself don’t turn to the Almighty God, fall on your knees and and ask God to forgive you and to deliver you from such evilness, you will go to Hell. The only Down Low you should be doing, is laying low before God crying out to Him.
No, you are not a man in charged. You don’t even know who you are and what you are.Right now you are living darkness.
But I know a MAN who can illuminate your way!
His name is Jesus.
AND LADIES:
Having a man without having thee ‘MAN’, is like haing no man.
Angela
February 13, 2004 at 12:12 pm
Emme
DL brothas are one of my worst nightmares, as I am a virgin. Sometimes I feel that I want to be sexually active, but there are some very frightening and selfish acts that black men hide. The most frightening thing about DL brothas is that many of them don’t consider themselves gay or bisexual because they sleep with men infrequently and/or they still enjoy sleeping with women. So they feel no need to tell their female partners. Some of them would be embarassed of the gay/bisexual label. Our lives are endangered because of their dishonesty. This should be a crime. Ladies your stories are encouraging. I am Becoming okay with my status as a virgin, although it’s frustrating at times. I have your insight to help me on my journey. Thank you. My prayers are with you.
February 12, 2004 at 5:38 pm
Man in Charge
Figures. A bunch of jilted beoatches all bent out of shape because their man likes to mix things up a bit. Every post here is from some bitch who is playing victim because they got “played” and now despise the man they fell in love with because he likes to fool around with other men occasionally. You think that means that he’s a faggot in desguise, and that he really wants men instead of women. WRONG, hoes!
There are three things a man wants most in his life:
Happiness (freedom, security and peace)
Children (to carry on his genes and his name)
Sex (here is the good part. Read on.)
Women are wired differently than men are. They equate love with sex and take any “infidelity” as a message that their partner loves the other person. They have come up with terms such as “cheating” and having “affairs” and so forth. Women actually think that men want to be married and remain faithful to one person for the rest of their lives. Yes, we will marry but if given the opportunity to get it on with another woman in a situation where we KNOW we can get away with it, we will go for it. Bet. Men are the same everywhere. We arent wired to be monogamous. Look at the other primates, and you can see whats up. You got the big man in the center of a group of women and younger males tryin to get his spot (and his women). Hate to say it, but you women think that the pussy is your weapon. You try to hold it back when you are mad, and give it up when you want something. This whole down low thang is taking the power out of all that.
We can get a buddy who is not necessarily gay, and get each other off whever we want to. We can go home to our wives and children whom we love very much, but we can lead a balanced sexual life without the games you women play.
My heart goes out to the women who contracted AIDS and other diseases from their men, but those men were stupid to begin with, and you should have been sharper to spot THAT first. After all, did you give it up to him without protection yourself? Chances are that he has the same habits when on the down low. Taking it up the ass is just wrong. I dont do that shit. If I want to stick my dick in something it will be a pussy. But only a man can give a good blowjob. Half you black women wont even to that for your man. He wont go without, he will get it elsewhere. Head is the favorite of all men of any race.
So there you have it.
February 2, 2017 at 2:06 pm
DLwifey
Typical self absorbed delusional thought pattern of the DL man. They think they satisfy their women, and it is always the woman’s fault that he won’t fuck her/eat her pussy/bring her to orgasm/use his hands. They are lazy. They go to the internet, find a man that sucks dick, and get heat they want without putting in work.
January 15, 2004 at 1:40 am
anna
these stories are appalling….i have been discussing this topic for about 4 years now with my sisters….it’s only getting worse folks….educate and be safe….god bless
January 8, 2004 at 8:43 pm
teresa
Hi. I just wanted to say that I meet plenty of men that are on the down low and the thing is this. The signs are there. I can tell if I meet a DL brother within a couple hours of meeting him. The signs are there and most of the time these women see the signs and ignore them. Some women are so hard up to have a man that they overlook all the signs. Women please open up your eyes and ears and pay attention to this epidemic because it is getting out of hand. And another thing. These guys that always want to have anal sex, and the guys that say they like it when women stick their fingers in there anus, etc. You have to ask questions. I will ask a guy in a heartbeat if he likes the 2 things listed above and if they say anything other no, I am turned off anyway. SO just act like you are interested sometimes and get deep with them and ask them questions…It always work for me. Its to the point now that I treat all men as if they were on the DL and make them wear protection no matter what.
December 26, 2003 at 2:55 pm
teresa
The other day I was listening to the radio and the topic of discussion was men on the “downlow”, a husband who is on the downlow called to explain his side of the story. He wanted us to feel his pain as to why he has to stay on the downlow. I respect the gay man who lives his life in the open but it’s the downlow and bisexual men I have problems with that need to burn.
November 15, 2003 at 2:32 pm
Anika
“The Downlow”
I’m going to you about something everyone should know, something certain black men are doing and it’s called the”downlow”. I sat and I listen to a lot the ladies break down sad stories of how their men have been behaving. What I want you to know your not alone, not at all because my man from the Bronx, that’s the one who made me fall. He stole my heart and a big piece of my soul and now we share a son together who’s 6 years old. 8 long years of being devoted to this man.Fighting and crying and giving all that I can, being played and worrying about this girl or that one and what it all amounts to is that wasn’t was happenin’. It was worse that I thought it was a great big surprise when I found out when I found out who he played me for, it was this guy named Eli! This can’t be right my man is so tight he’d even go down on me and freak me all night! But that wasn’t the catch, how I caught him intahe act he would suck my clit like a dick and then i knew he was a fag. No penetration just suck it all night then he slipped and called me “daddy” and ask if it’s feeling alright . Then i found out if that wasn’t enough that they rendezvoude in NY and he was getting done in the butt. I know I can tell their destiny is hell! Get away fast there comes AIDS through their mask of a good looking brotha who will shell out mad cash. There’s another side to them that these guys sre trying to hide be aware of the downlow this situation is no lie !
I am hurting from time to time because of this lie I loved that man so much that at times I want to deny that, which I knew existed. I’m thankful that God is loving and faithful and truly not like man. He is my deliverer and my redeemer he pulls us through and protects us fromthe evil that exists.I am God’s child for I am born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God which lives and abides forever. 1Pet.1:23
October 3, 2003 at 1:32 pm
stephanie
In continuation of my last comment, I was very fortunate that I did not test positive for anything.Thank you Jesus! My son is now 25 years old, and he is the oldest of four(another marriage),he is healthy,along with the rest of us, has a good career and a child of his own. We were lucky—but others aren’t and won’t be. Educate yourselves about the real deal. I was fortunate to have learned early, and took heed to the signs and lack thereof.It’s your lives, sweeties–live it well!!!
October 3, 2003 at 1:26 pm
stephanie
I am a black professional woman in my forties who never thought she would ever hear of such foolishness—again. once, when I was 16 years old, and unfortunately, pregnant,I was visiting what would later become my future ex-husband at his mother’s home, and saw a letter from a mutual friend of ours lying on his tv stand. I picked the letter up, thinking that it was just a letter from him, as he was away in the service. I don’t have to tell you the shock and horror I felt when I discovered that there was “something” going on between the two, and that he was pressuring my ex-husband to tell me or he would do “something”.There were references made to his anatomy that I knew deep down inside had to be proof there was a more personal approach in their relationship.I was physically ill,as I wasonly a teenager, and these individuals were 4 and 6 years older than I, respectively. I NEVER even shared this information with anyone, although I did leave him, he thought it was other reasons, until a few years back,I told an old,dear friend of mine, who is male, and who was trying to start a relationship with me and there were so many road blocks he was determined to find out what was truly the p[roblem, and I felt the need to share it with him. He , in turn, told my Mother, who lost it.Now, I never got real confirmation that anything actually happened with these two, but I have always had a weak heart for the matter. I think anyone who reads this knows that whatever I read in that letter was coming from that young man’s heart, and trying to stain the other. I just learned early on to look for signs of strange behavior, and believe me, things will start to happen that point to this, we just have to keep our eyes wide open for it.
October 2, 2003 at 1:30 pm
lisa
I am so shocked as to what I am reading and as to what I say on “The Ricki Lake” show! How is one able to differenciate when your husband has a genuine childhood male friend, or is he? I know we jokingly make comments about how much time that our men spend with their male friends, but now I am truly concerned! I really wish I knew some key things to observe and look for. Are there any testimonials from men that have finally come clean, how they got away with such a lifestyle? If so, PLEASE respond to my e-mail.
Thank you so much,
Lisa